Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Sinning in the womb

Thirdwoe Wrote:Not at all true? The Bible does not teach re-incarnation, as is taught in false religions, nor have any Christian Saints confirmed it to be true, nor did the early Church ever teach such things, during any period. You did not get your ideas from any of these sources.

I didn't say it taught reincarnation, I said that the idea came to me by reading the bible.

Also, before making such a claim, perhaps you should read about Origen, who was a beloved Christian Saint in the 2nd century before he was "de-sainted" in the 5th century for his belief in reincarnation. I'll see if I can gather up some more information on him, as well, but it's obvious you don't know who he is, so please do look him up.

Thirdwoe Wrote:He was in the same body that He was born and died in on the Cross

Thirdwoe, I understand your position - what I'm asking from you is to prove it. Not being able to prove such a position won't invalidate your claim, but surely it would leave room for debate?

Thirdwoe Wrote:Son of God does not need to get another body

I don't think He needed a new body either, but maybe for whatever reason receiving a new one is -just- the way it works?

It seems as if you are denying such a claim based on nothing more than what you think "glorified" means and based on what you think is true, not because there's any solid proof indicating that He had the same body. I'm not driving my point home with that one example above about Mary that wouldn't hold weight on its best day, but (and I mean absolutely no disrespect by this) you're not really knocking the ball out of the park with your examples either.

Thirdwoe Wrote:He resurrected the same one He died in...and He will also Resurrect the same bodies that all His Holy Ones have and will die in, when He returns to restore all things.

"Same bodies": This is what I'm saying is something we don't have actual evidence of. How do you know? If such is truly the case, I will accept it, but you have to give me something more than simply saying that such is the case.

Thirdwoe Wrote:All souls are in Paradise now...awaiting this event, they are not sent repeatedly into new bodies to live out new adventures on Earth. What would be the point?

You seem like a passionate person, and I love engaging in conversations with people like you, but if you don't read what I write, then what is the point in replying? To simply tell me what's on your mind and what it is that you've learned and have been told about the bible your whole life? I don't want that, because it would mean that you're not actually paying attention to what it is that I'm saying.

Anyway, here is your answer:

Seeker Wrote:...many claim that reincarnation is all about walking from life to life, learning as much as you can about God, having what you've learned move on through to the the next life with you, until you finally reach "the" highest spiritual state.

I'm not claiming with certainty that the above is "the point", but even if it wasn't, there may be a million reasons as to why reincarnation may be true. Who's to say? You? Me? Who are we? Collectively speaking, has our wisdom as a humanity neared God's wisdom? Of course not. So how much less you? Or me? Yet you won't allow room - not a single cm - for the possibility of there being an actual reason behind why God would allow such a thing. So be it.

Thirdwoe Wrote:Perfected...incorruptible, being freed from the curse of sin and death and no longer subject to it...being eternal and no need for another body to live in.

That's a bold claim - an obviously accepted one, but still. I'd like to know how the above is not just your perception of what is true. Did you read this information from a reliable source? If so, please provide that source. If not, then did it come entirely from your own mind?

Thirdwoe Wrote:No, because that is not what it teaches and is not what I believe or teach.

The reason I asked that question was because of the way you phrased your answer here:

Thirdwoe Wrote:But this is not going to follow you into multiple lives on earth, until you only have "good Karma" paying you back.

You basically implied that "multiple lives" wouldn't occur until you "have good karma" - indicating that "multiple lives" -would- occur. Not trying to nitpick here, just clearing that up.

Thirdwoe Wrote:On this particular Earth that we were once born in, we live One Life, after our bodies die and when Christ Returns, we will be "glorified" in this physical body and those who are still living at that time, will be instantly glorified as well. And then we will all dwell in a New Heaven and New Earth, where there is no more death...and thus no need to keep coming back after you keep on dying over and over again.

Thirdwoe, the traditional Christian belief on this topic is something I believe most people understand, but if you re-read my response to Shamasha above, you'll see why I'm having a hard time accepting such a thing and why reincarnation just seems to make a lot of sense. Like I said above, I don't know for sure that such is the case, and although I do greatly appreciate your response, nothing you've said so far really proves anything besides the belief that most Christians currently uphold.

Thirdwoe Wrote:After Judgment, comes the Reward...

What reward do unbaptized babies get? Where do they go? How about, as I mentioned above, those who God knows will eventually come to repentance in Christ, but that such a seed won't harvest in their current lifetime. How about them? What "reward" will they get from such a God who is defined as Love? Eternal hellfire?

Thirdwoe Wrote:After Judgement, comes the Reward. Those who are Born of Water and The Spirit, upon their physical death, go, in their Soul/Spirit to Paradise, to await the final judgment when Christ Returns to judge the living and the dead. The redeemed among Men, have Eternal Life already, but their bodies await the time of the Resurrection, which takes place on the Last Day, when Christ Returns to restore ALL things.

Refer to my response above.

Thirdwoe Wrote:Seeker, read what Jesus had to say about the rich Man and Lazarus, and tell me if that sounds like living another life on Earth, is that what it says the rich man who died is experiencing?

"Sounds." Exactly. Are we suppose to take everything the bible says so literally? Wasn't it you that said how everything is not what it seems? Does that logic only apply to other religious teachings?

We've already established that such a thing isn't explicitly stated or taught within current Christan sects. Also, there is much hyperbole in biblical text, this you can't deny, so what are we to conclude with this parable? Here is the only information we've been given that actually describes where Lazarus was:

"he was in torment"

"In Hades, where he was in torment"

"he looked up and saw Abraham far away"

"I am in agony in this fire."

"those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us."

Okay, so we have "torment", and we have the rich Man "looking up at Abraham", and then finally, we have him not being able to go where Abraham currently was/is. You feel confident claiming that he wasn't on earth because of that? Do we not experience torment on earth? Do most Christians, while on earth, not look up to heaven and pray to the saints? Are all men freely able to walk in and out of heaven? Because of the above you want me to believe in a red man with a pitch fork in a movie-styled hell, but you won't consider that maybe it's possible Lazarus isn't really burning in actual hell fire and that the anguish he's feeling is due to a separation from God, that somehow, is still on earth?

Maybe reincarnation sheds light on what Jesus meant by, "...with God all things are possible." The rich Man had much and cared not, and in the next life, he had nothing, and perhaps it's only then that he will finally awaken and become compassionate towards others? When he finally sees what it's like to be in such a lowly position, whatever that position may be?

Isn't it written that God is not wiling that "any" should perish? Wasn't it Jesus who said that He would draw "all" men to Himself once He was lifted from the earth? Does this not include the rich Man? If it doesn't, then God was lying. If it does (which I would hope we both believe is the case), then how does the process of drawing one near actually work? Is there a step-by-step guideline in the bible that shows us how Jesus will draw the rich Man near, or are we left to assume? Important it may not be, but for the sake of conversation, let us attempt to tackle such a question.

Think about the following passage:

"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God. When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, ?Who then can be saved?" 26 Jesus looked at them and said, ?With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

So the conclusion above is what exactly? That if the rich man continued loving his wealth more than he loved Christ, that it would be impossible, according to Jesus, to enter the kingdom, right? Okay, so are we given any other information about the rich man or are we left to conclude that he, like MANY in this day and the days of past, cared much more about his possessions than He cared about God? If that's not the case with him, it's the case with many others. What then? Is the rich Man Jesus "loved" damned forever? Or will he find his way back home to God (...possibly) by way of reincarnation?

The rich Man having abundant wealth in that life, does not mean that he would wind up in the same circumstance in the next. Perhaps his dedication to such material wealth is drawn by his ego (which many claim is Satan) and the ego is dissolved with the body once you die ("He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short"), but the truth (as I mentioned above) remains in you (and "it will NOT be taken away from you") in the "age to come?" So he may have had a chance in his next life because "with God, all things are possible" and his lust for wealth had passed with the one who caused such a desire to spawn in the first place.

Messages In This Thread
Sinning in the womb - by Seeker - 09-04-2012, 04:57 PM
Re: Sinning in the womb - by Thirdwoe - 09-04-2012, 06:17 PM
Re: Sinning in the womb - by Seeker - 09-04-2012, 07:50 PM
Re: Sinning in the womb - by Paul Younan - 09-05-2012, 01:13 AM
Re: Sinning in the womb - by Seeker - 09-05-2012, 01:27 AM
Re: Sinning in the womb - by Paul Younan - 09-05-2012, 02:45 AM
Re: Sinning in the womb - by Seeker - 09-05-2012, 05:51 AM
Re: Sinning in the womb - by Thirdwoe - 09-05-2012, 08:02 AM
Re: Sinning in the womb - by Seeker - 09-05-2012, 02:53 PM
Re: Sinning in the womb - by Thirdwoe - 09-05-2012, 06:54 PM
Re: Sinning in the womb - by Seeker - 09-05-2012, 11:42 PM
Re: Sinning in the womb - by Thirdwoe - 09-06-2012, 01:37 AM
Re: Sinning in the womb - by Seeker - 09-06-2012, 02:11 AM
Re: Sinning in the womb - by Thirdwoe - 09-06-2012, 03:27 AM
Re: Sinning in the womb - by Stephen Silver - 09-07-2012, 05:09 PM
Re: Sinning in the womb - by Seeker - 09-07-2012, 06:18 PM
Re: Sinning in the womb - by Thirdwoe - 09-07-2012, 06:37 PM
Re: Sinning in the womb - by Seeker - 09-07-2012, 06:45 PM
Re: Sinning in the womb - by Thirdwoe - 09-08-2012, 01:30 AM

Forum Jump:

Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)