Peshitta Forum
Second coming of Yeshua Meshikha - Printable Version

+- Peshitta Forum (
+-- Forum: New Testament (
+--- Forum: General (
+--- Thread: Second coming of Yeshua Meshikha (/showthread.php?tid=2899)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5

Re: Second coming of Yeshua Meshikha - Thirdwoe - 08-27-2012


Yea...sorry you arent feeling well enough to continue to discuss your beliefs. I'll say a few more things here, but you need not respond if you are not feeling well, you can answer the questions to yourself if you like.

Notice the wording of the Creed there near the end, concerning the matter of the Return of Christ: And remember that this was written in 325 A.D.

The Creed:
"He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven; From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead."

If He Returned in 70 A.D. to do this, and there is to be no Return of Christ after that date, then how do we explain the clear teaching in the Creed that He will indeed Return from Heaven to judge the living and the dead, just as He said He would "on The Last Day" as recorded in Scripture?

And the raising of the Saints (Matt 27:52,53) in 30 A.D. could not be the Resurrection spoken of by Christ that is to take place on The Last Day, when He Returns to judge the entire world and put down ALL dominion and rule and free the entire creation of its bondage to death, which it was subjected to, unwillingly.

That former resurrection is not the same physical resurrection that is prophesied to take place at the end of time, on The Last Day, when all the dead in Christ since that time, receive their glorified physical bodies at the Return of Christ.

John 11:24 "Martha answered, "I know he (Lazarus) will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.""

John 6:39 "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."

Q: If "raise them up at the last day" took place in 30 A.D., then when will all those whom the Father gave Christ since then, be raised up, if The Last Day already took place in 70 A.D.?

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."
Q: Same question.

And so...If the former Saints who rose from the dead in 30 A.D. was on "The Last Day"...then how is it that this was 40 years before 70 A.D. when you say the Return of Christ took place, which is when the later Resurrection of the dead in Christ would need to take place, (if you are correct) when He came to establish His Kingdom on "The Last Day"...the Day of the Lord, as Prophesied by the Prophets and Christ Himself? Where was the resurrection in 70 A.D., and how is this considered "The Last Day", when Christ said He would raise up His Saints, when He Returns?

Konway, Jesus LITERLY rose from the dead in a Literal Physical body, although it was glorified and not limited to the natural laws, and He will LITERLY return in that same literal glorified physical body, and raise all the literal physical bodies of the Saints, glorifying them, which had died since He returned to Heaven, freeing these bodied from the curse. This is called "the redemption of our bodies" which The Apostle Paul speaks about.

Thanks for the discussion.


Re: Second coming of Yeshua Meshikha - konway87 - 08-27-2012

Since you asked a question, I will "try" to answer your question. But I don't know if I am able to give a strong answer. I am only going to focus on "few" points.

Peshitta was written in first century AD. In India, we believed from first century AD that New Testament was written in Aramaic. We had Peshitta manuscripts for centuries.

Nicene Creed was written in 4th century AD. There are lots of incidents that happened during 4th century that I don't agree with. "Usually" from this time onwards, Greek began to be considered as the original language of New Testament while disregarding Aramaic. This is a step to wrong direction.

From this point onwards, we see addition of several things that are not found in Peshitta including Pericope de Adultera (John 7:53-8:11), addition of Jeremiah as the prophet in Matthew 27:9, etc. Another point I disagree is calling Mary "Mother of God."

Re: Second coming of Yeshua Meshikha - Thirdwoe - 08-27-2012


The Creed was crafted very carefully as taken from the standard Doctrines passed down through the Teachers of the Church, from the 1st to the early 4th century and which agrees with Holy Scripture...we can see this is true easy enough by reading all the early Church teachers, both from the East and West, and comparing what they teach with Holy Scripture.

If there is even a hint of this teaching that Christ Returned in 70 A.D. and that He will not Return in the future, written by them or taught by any Church father from the 1st-4th century... I would like to see it.

Where is the record of early Christians who tell us that the Lord's second coming or return took place in 70 A.D. ?

And were did you recieve this teaching from? A teacher from the Othodox Church you attend? or some other Church teachers you have heard teach? I know this idea is taught in some Protestant groups here in America...and the internet has it taught on various sites. The idea really genders far more questions that it answers. And the answers always subject the Scriptures to an alegorical interpretation, where it is very easy to come up with a number of conclusions.

I wonder if you even believe that Christ has a glorified Physical Body, the same one He was crucified in, and rose from the grave in, and ascended to Heaven in? The same one that He told the Apostle Thomas to put his fingers into the holes in his hands and side...and the same he ate fish in. It was indeed very physical...yet glorifed. And we will also be once again in this Physical body, yet changed/glorified, after the Resurrection on the Last Day, when Christ Returns.

It will be a glorious time indeed!!!


Re: Second coming of Yeshua Meshikha - konway87 - 08-27-2012

I am making my last point - If you believe that Yeshua Meshikha still hasn't come, then you are throwing away James 5:7-9, Hebrews 10:37, 1 Peter 4:7, and other verses in Peshitta that says that the coming of the Lord is near.

Re: Second coming of Yeshua Meshikha - distazo - 08-27-2012

konway87 Wrote:Thirdwoe,
Now you supported your statement with verses from Peshitta. I like that and I deeply appreciate that.

I think you are expecting return of Christ (in his physical form) with a physical kingdom.

I want to point out something - We cannot take "everything" literally in Bible.

Here are some examples.

Exactly, I have some doubts about the issue. Everybody was talking/writing about the second coming, that it would be 'quickly' and even in revelation it is written that it would happen quickly.
However, I do not mean it inpolite, but if you would talk with God, never ask him about time. His answer would be 'it quickly will be done' and it is quickly, but not in our eyes.
They -did- as written in Acts 1. When will he return to establish the kingdom? The answer was in verse 7 that we are not to have Gods timeschedule.

However, the return would be so evident, that everybody would/could see it. Not just for example an elite of cultleaders (as often happens) who know he has returned 'spiritually'.
It would be clear as the lightning in heaven.
There are however, two issues, not to be mixed up.
1) The start of the kingdom
2) The return to earth for judgment.

The kingdom started during Yeshu's lifetime. It was effective already (Mark 9).
I think that because of the 'multiple choice' construction like in Matthew 24, that many Christians understood that the end of Jerusalem would go with the return of the Mesheeka.

I hope we can discuss this as this forum is not for theological reflections <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

wish you a good health and blessings

Re: Second coming of Yeshua Meshikha - Thirdwoe - 08-27-2012


Quote:I am making my last point - If you believe that Yeshua Meshikha still hasn't come, then you are throwing away James 5:7-9, Hebrews 10:37, 1 Peter 4:7, and other verses in Peshitta that says that the coming of the Lord is near.

It was near...but what "coming" meant, is not interpreted correctly by the full preterist teachings that some have embraced, which causes more confusion when reading the Scriptures than it figures out.

I do believe that Christ did indeed come, IN JUDGMENT, upon that generation, but that was NOT the prophesied physical Return of Christ, just the Prophesied judgment that would come upon those who rejected and murdered the Son of God, and upon whom was placed all the guilt of all the murders of God's Prophets from righteous Abel to Zechariah, as Christ had foretold.

I don't throw anything away, but rightly divide the Word of Truth, by the help of God's Holy Spirit and the witness of all of God's faithful teachers throughout the centuries.

I don't believe that the Apostles knew when the Return of Christ was going to take place. Yeshu' told them that neither He, nor the Angels knew when The Father had planned for it to take place. But He did warn them about the coming judgment upon Jerusalem and what to look out for, as to the signs of its impending destruction.

I also believe that He has come to us in His Holy Spirit, and dwells in His Holy People/Temple, His Holy Church/Bride, in His Spiritual Kingdom, which is present within us, and has been since 30 A.D. But we await His glorious physical appearing from Heaven with ALL His glorified Saints, to resurrect ALL those who have died in Him these last 2 days/2,000 years, to redeem their bodies and all creation from the curse, restoring all things as God had planned from the beginning.

We pray every day, to Our Father... "Your Kingdom come, Your will be done, on Earth, as it is in Heaven" and so it shall be, in His perfect time, to the Glory of Alaha who wills it and who has Prophesied it.

For those who may be wondering if this teaching is right, about 70 A.D. then try to make it work with these two Scriptures.

1st Thessalonians 4:13: ?We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.?

1st Corinthians 15:52: ? a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.?

Did this happen in 70 A.D.?


Re: Second coming of Yeshua Meshikha - Luc Lefebvre - 08-27-2012

distazo Wrote:Exactly, I have some doubts about the issue. Everybody was talking/writing about the second coming, that it would be 'quickly' and even in revelation it is written that it would happen quickly.
I always understood "quickly" to mean "suddenly". Like a thief in the night, catching many off gaurd. And Maran said Himself that if someone says to you "look over there, he has come" or "guess what?! He's back!" don't believe him, for as the lightning flashes from the east to the west, so will the coming be of the Son of Man. That's my rough paraphrase, but we know the basic gist of what Christ is saying is that everyones going to know when He's back. There's not going to be any silly debate.

Re: Second coming of Yeshua Meshikha - konway87 - 08-27-2012

Yes, Yeshua Meshikha said this to the people who lived during that time. Yeshua Meshikha "usually" mentioned his coming whenever he explained about destruction of the temple of Jerusalem (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21).

I want to point out this to you.

In my opinion, I believe Yeshua Meshikha knew the time of his coming. But not the exact moment. Only Father Alaha knew the exact moment. For Example, Its just like saying we know that the woman is going to give birth to a baby boy in September of this year. But we don't know which day in September?.

Matthew 16: 27-28 - "For the Son of man is to come in the glory of his Father, with all his holy angels; and then will he recompense to every man as his deeds are. Verily I say to you: There are some persons standing here, who shall not taste death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

If Yeshua Meshikha was talking about transfiguration in these verses, then it wouldn't make any sense. This is because the disciples didn't see any angels in transfiguration. Yeshua Meshikha also didn't recompense to every man as his deeds were.

We see that the coming of the Lord is near in James 5:7-9 and the end is near in 1 Peter 4:7. You know that this was written for the people who lived during that period of time.

Re: Second coming of Yeshua Meshikha - Thirdwoe - 08-27-2012


"There are some persons standing here, who shall not taste death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

The Apostle John saw it...

Re: Second coming of Yeshua Meshikha - konway87 - 08-27-2012

There is more than one person. "Some persons." Not just Apostle John.

Re: Second coming of Yeshua Meshikha - Thirdwoe - 08-27-2012


How do we know what some others might have seen, and did not write it down?

Konway, If the Return of Christ took place in 70 A.D. which some people have taught you...It would surely have been noticed by His Church, and they would have spoken about it and passed down the glorious information. It would have been a HUGE event!

But there is NOTHING said about it by God's Church through it's teachers...and as we can see, in 325 A.D., they all were still expecting His Return in the future, as spoken there in The Nicene Creed.

This false teaching really does nothing for anyone, Konway, but cause more division and strife among people, and more confusion as well...for absolulty no reason! It does'nt change or help anything at all in anyone's life, ...though it may soothe some itching ears I suppose.

Mine don't itch.


Re: Second coming of Yeshua Meshikha - konway87 - 08-27-2012

That's your opinion.

You can talk whatever about so called Christian teachings around 4th century AD. Ask the experts like Paul Younan or Steven Silver here. They will give a great detail about the corruption in Christianity in Western regions during 4th century and 5th century AD.

Re: Second coming of Yeshua Meshikha - Thirdwoe - 08-27-2012


No, it's the facts...and I don't need to ask them, because I know very well what was taught from the 1st through the 4th centuries, and when certain things came in and certain things went out. I've studied it all for over 30 years now and could write a few more books on it.

The fact is...this teaching you want to be true so bad, was not taught by The Apostles, nor by their succsesors. And that is not an opinion.

Christ talked about the Harvest being at the END of the World, on the Last Day...not in 70 A.D. He talked about 70 A.D. when He Prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem. And clearly the two events are not the same. His coming in Judgment in 70 A.D. is not the same as His Physical Return at the end of time, when ALL Nations will be judged by Him, both the living and the dead, when the Resurrection takes place, and we recieve our glorifed Physical bodies...The Blessed Hope.

I don't think you will protest too much, when it takes place.


Re: Second coming of Yeshua Meshikha - konway87 - 08-27-2012

Its not upto you to decide about Facts in this world. Father Alaha will decide that.

Now when it comes to this forum, there are moderators in this forum who will decide what is appropriate and what is inappropriate.

Below message is for all moderators

I have used books in Peshitta to support my statements in this thread. Gospels, James, Hebrews, and other books in Peshitta are great examples. The reason why I used Josephus and his works is to show that Yeshua Meshikha's predictions in Peshitta happened and also his second coming (also used Matthew 16:28, James 5:7-9, Hebrews 10:37, etc). This only strenghtens the importance of Peshitta rather than weakening it. I want to point out that its for you to decide if I have brought wrong information to this thread or not. Not any other members of this forum. I have supported my statements with verses from Peshitta.

The only reason why I came back was because of a request. I have done my best based on that request. Now I am saying goodbye to everyone!

Re: Second coming of Yeshua Meshikha - Paul Younan - 08-27-2012

Oh boy, the age old question of what is appropriate for the forum. We have all been guilty of crossing the line from time to time. It's a joy deciding what crossed the line, isn't it?

I generally view the problem from the standpoint of a question: does a thread help promote Aramaic primacy, or an understanding of Aramaic, or give a historical background to our "mission" here. With that being said, Akhi Konway, does the Aramaic/Peshitta give any more insight to this topic than the Greek does ?

If so, how? That would be in context with our goals on this forum.


PS - to answer your question, no, the CoE has no belief that Christ has already returned. I'm sure if they did, they would not have kept it secret. Over 99% of our liturgy revolves around the Second Coming, The Resurrection from the Dead, etc. I also find it hard to imagine that the church would have endured so many vicious persecutions (up until today) if the events prophesied have already transpired. For what? More likely than not, they would have converted to Islam by now (or else, reverted to rabbinical Judaism).