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Concerning Dave. B's New Testament - rungold315 - 03-22-2008

Dave, have you considered getting a committee to revise your New Testament as a whole group? I trust your version as the ultimate flawless underlying text, but would just feel more comfortable if it seemed a bit more professional. Such as complete depletion of all typos, seperating the mixed footnotes from scripture, reducing the font size and making it in Times New Roman, and just having a few more brothers/sisters to just check up on everything. I understand youve done the English speaking world more than enough by your efforts, but I think with the help of a committee, you can be completely certain that no other revision is necessary.

Re: Concerning Dave. B's New Testament - gbausc - 03-22-2008

Shlama Akhi,

Wasn't the camel a horse built by a commitee? <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

Seriously, what I want is a big name publisher. They will take care of the proof reading and editing,etc.
I have reissued many corrected editions in the past year and will gladly send you a pdf by email for the Plain English translation, if you wish.
I can't say all the bugs are out of it, though I have corrected quite a few typos in the past 4 months and reissued it.

Thanks for the endorsement. I appreciate your concern for professionalism,though I have mixed feelings about "professionals" working over the English with their grubby little hands, messing everything up. I like the idea that for the time being, the mistakes are my mistakes and I can correct them as I discover them. If I give it to someone else, I don't know what the end product will be and I'll have no control over it. At least, that is what I fear. I hope I am wrong about that.

I have issued the translation in 8 point Times New Roman font in a 2 column format without notes (260 pages). It actually looks quite professional, I think.
You ought to have a look at my web site from time to time. You might find a surprise or two. I update it fairly regularly with news and revisions, correction lists, etc.. You can also read quite a few endorsements, including one from Paul Younan, Ryan, Randy,Blake,Tim and J.


Re: Concerning Dave. B's New Testament - ograabe - 04-12-2008

April 12, 2008

Dear Dave,

I really like your translations of the Pershitta text, but I must admit to being uneasy about two important words. In both cases I very much prefer Paul Younan's translation, and I hope that you will consider adopting them.

Mattai 27:46 and Marqus 15:34, Jesus' cry from the cross, "Eli, Eli lamana sabachthani"

Paul Younan has "My God, My God, why have you spared me?" The cry of a man in pain.

You have used the charged and misleading word "forsaken", which some may incorrectly infer as some kind of transcendental rejection. Paul, John, and Luke don't even mention this cry, suggesting that an extreme view of its theological importance is uncalled for.

The second word is in Luke 1:3. Luke is addressing a man whose name is "Tawpeela" according to Paul Younan. I am not sure why your translation is different. I know that it is common for an Aramaic lexicon to translate this word as "Theophilus", but I think this is backwards thinking. The Peshitta is the original New Testament and the Greek translators did not know who Tawpeela was, so they just named him "lover of God" in Greek. They did the same sort of thing with other Aramaic words that they did not understand, such as changing "Sheol" to the Greek word "Hades" which does not have the same meaning.

I think we have discussed these two before, but I hope you will yet consider them for future revisions. The source of these alternative translations is Paul Younan Gospel interlinear found on this web site.

I thank you in advance for your consideration of these suggestions.



Re: Concerning Dave. B's New Testament - SP Silver - 04-14-2008

ograabe Wrote:April 12, 2008

Dear Dave,

I really like your translations of the Pershitta text, but I must admit to being uneasy about two important words. In both cases I very much prefer Paul Younan's translation, and I hope that you will consider adopting them.

Mattai 27:46 and Marqus 15:34, Jesus' cry from the cross, "Eli, Eli lamana sabachthani"

Paul Younan has "My God, My God, why have you spared me?" The cry of a man in pain.

You have used the charged and misleading word "forsaken", which some may incorrectly infer as some kind of transcendental rejection. Paul, John, and Luke don't even mention this cry, suggesting that an extreme view of its theological importance is uncalled for.

Shlama Otto:
I'm not answering for David. However in this point I strongly agree with the translation of "shabakh" as ""forsake", the same as the Peshitta A"NK and as a precise translation of the Hebrew "azav". I disagree with Paul Younan on this one point of translation.
Why is it that Yeshua's death on the tree, excruciating as it would have been, together with His singular purpose of dying for the sins of the world, and more directly of those that put their trust in Him, not be extreme.
Check out the Peshitta A"NK (Codex Ambrosiano) and you will see that the text is verbatim with Matthew 27:46. This is the precise translation of the Hebrew, is it not?
The whole understanding of Yeshua being "rejected/forsaken" by the Father has nothing to do with Yeshua's deity, rather it has to do with His nefesh khayia, as a substitutional blood sacrifice for sin. In Leviticus 17:11 it is written,

"the soul of the flesh is in the blood".

Yeshua died, but his deity did not, nor could it. It was Yeshua's created "nefesh khayia" (Aramaic-naphsha, Ambrosiano Codex) that died, and Mashikha spiritually descended, as it were, to the lower parts of the earth to secure salvation for all those that put their trust in Him and then was resurrected again, by the Spirit of the Father on the third day.(Romans 8:10-11) So, a distinction must be made as to just what the "forsaking" was all about, rather than changing the simple meaning and agreement between the Hebrew and Aramaic of the Hebrew T"NK - Aramaic A"NK.
Genesis 2:7 describes the two "souls" that are united in androgenous Adam. There is "nishmat khayim/living nashama/breath of God" (Job 26:4, 27:3) and "nefesh khayia/living soul/animal soul". It is God that breathed into Adam's nostrils, "living nashama". This "articulating soul" sets Adam apart from all living creatures. We humans are eternally responsible for our sins. The phrase "nefesh khayia" or "nefesh hakhayah" is used in Genesis 1:20, 21, 24. In 1:28 the word "khayai" stands alone as the equivalent of "nefesh khayai". So in context "khayia" can be used in place of "nefesh khayia". Perhaps this is why the KJV translates the Hebrew word "nefesh" as "life" in Leviticus 11:17.
Nevertheless, Yeshua descended with His nefesh khayia into the lower parts of the earth (Ephesians 4:7-9) and also ascended far above all the heavens". The Spirit of God is not restricted from descending for the Spirit of God is everywhere. (Psalm 139:7-12) The reality that Yeshua's 'living soul" descended is for those of us that trust in him, the gift of eternal salvation, bought by his substitutional sacrifice.

Stephen Silver
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Re: Concerning Dave. B's New Testament - gbausc - 04-14-2008

Shlama Akhi Otto,

I am glad you like my translation so much. I transliterate "taopyla" as "Theophila" , according to the vowel points in The New Covenant Aramaic Peshitta Text with Hebrew Translation.
The 1979 Syriac Bible has the same pronunciation:"Theophila". It probably is a Greek name. There are other Greek names in the Peshitta, which was inevitable in the first century Roman Empire where Syria and its environs had been Hellenized to a great extent. We are not sure Luke did not write to a nobleman in Syria (Luke was from bilingual Antioch,Syria) named "Theophila". This is no big deal, Otto. The written texts I have support "Theophila".

As to the cry from the cross, "Eli, Eli lamana sabachthani", I have written at length in the past, so I will take another tac; first I will remind you that Psalm 22:1 in The Peshitta has the exact wording
of Matthew's record: yntqbs anml yhla yhla- "Alahi, Alahi, lemana shabaqthani?" The Hebrew of Psalm 22:1 is unanimously translated "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

I understand your problem with that translation very well. It is a theological one, and I also sympathize with your position. The approach I will take is this: Yeshua our Savior was praying as our substitute. He was in our place:
Quote:" For He is The Atonement who is for the sake of our sins, and not in our place only, but also in the place of the entire universe."
1 John 2:2 (my translation)
Isaiah wrote:
Quote:Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
- Isa 53:12
Intercession is taking the place of someone else in dire circumstances; it is also a form of prayer in which one prays in someone else's place. Our Lord did both; He took our place as Mediator and Atonement. "
Quote:He became sin for us
"- 2 Cor 5:21 He also prayed as if He were a sinner, as He lifted our sins in His own holy body onto the cross:"
Quote:And he took all of our sins and lifted them in his body to the cross, for as we are dead to sin, we shall live in his righteousness, for by his scars you have been healed
." 1 Peter 2:24 (My translation)

I would remind you also that His Father was with Him to the very end of His Life, and that the end of His Life was the end of all life: "
Quote:For the love of The Messiah compels us to reason this: The One died in the place of every person; so then every person died with him
. 2 Cor 5:14 For He was and is the Life of all living, Who truly died as us; He truly took our place and became the focus of all the sin of the world, past present and future, thus experiencing the death of the Soul which all sin brings: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4 and 20.

Personally, I believe the cross had ramifications for the entire Godhead which I will not discuss here, but I will say that I do not believe God The Father ever abandoned His Son.I do believe our Lord felt abandoned by God, as every sinner does, and that He prayed that prayer on our behalf, as our sin bearer and scape goat. I am supremely grateful that He did, not only for my sake, but for yours, and that of the whole creation.
The only thing I can add as to why He prayed the words He prayed is that with the death of His Soul (which Steve Silver has mentioned), which Isaiah prophesied 3 times in Isaiah 53, He also lost His faith and hope in God and in Himself.
He did not know Who He was: "
Quote:I am a worm, and not a man
." The wods, "My God,My God" are never heard from our Lord's lips except in that cry from the cross. He always said, "Father", when praying. It would appear that he was not thinking of God as His Father, nor of Himself as His Son- Psalms 22:1,6 The entire Psalm is a prophecy of His crucifixion and resurrection:"
Quote:He hoped in the Lord, let him deliver him: let him save him, seeing he delighteth in him
." v.8 "
Quote:For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of evil???doers have enclosed me; they pierced my hands and my feet
." v.16 18 (ERV)
Quote:They part my garments among them, and upon my vesture do they cast lots
Quote:I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee
. -v.22

A contemplative reading of just verses 1 and 2 of Psalm 22 will bear me out in this, to which I leave those who take issue.

I close with another scripture: Ro 8:32 "
Quote:And if he did not show pity ("khuus" means-"pity,"spare") upon his Son, but he handed him over for the sake of us all, how shall he not give us everything with him?
Many Blessings,

Re: Concerning Dave. B's New Testament - Thirdwoe - 04-14-2008

???Jesus saith unto her, ???Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.??? John 20:17

The Father of Yeshua is also the God of Yeshua???. Yeshua prays to Him and worships Him???and calls Him God.

God the Father of Yeshua indeed forsook His only begotten Son when Yeshua became SIN. Yeshua did not just take the sin of mankind upon himself, but Yeshua became sin???the flesh of Yeshua became the sacrifice for the sin of all mankind for all time???past, present, and future???. and whosoever calls upon Him will be saved....

Even though the human nature of Yeshua knew no sin, Yeshua became sin itself that day and God condemned all sin in the flesh of Yeshua for all time???

We can???t now know what terrible pain that was for Yeshua???. and we may never fully grasp it's depth???

But the real good news is that God did not leave the soul of Yeshua in hell nor allow the body of Yeshua to see corruption???Yeshua was redeemed from the pit and raised to eternal life in our place just as he was forsaken by God in our place on that curse tree???.

Re: Concerning Dave. B's New Testament - ograabe - 04-15-2008

April 15, 2008

Thanks to Dave, Stephen, and Thirdwoe for responding to my query. I am impressed by this linguistic discussion and thorough exposition. I find this series of comments to be quite compelling.



Re: Concerning Dave. B's New Testament - gbausc - 04-15-2008

Shlama all,

I do not deny that The Father is the God of Yeshua or that Yeshua our Lord referred to Him as "my God". My point was that He never addressed Him as such in prayer, except that once on the cross. He always addressed Him as "My Father", or "Father". I think that is significant when considering His state of mind and how He viewed His relationship with God at the time of the great darkness, suffering and death of the cross.
Psalm 22 indicates in verse 6 and elsewhere that He viewed Himself as something other than The Son of God at that time: "I am a worm, and not a man."



Re: Concerning Dave. B's New Testament - Thirdwoe - 04-15-2008

Concerning Yeshua becoming Sin and delivering us from it at the same time.

I have often wondered if the snake on the pole that Moses was instructed to make in the wilderness, and which God used to delivered the people of snake bites that they were suffering from could be a picture of Yeshua becoming sin for us to save us from sin's fatal injury...

It is also a wonder to me that later the people started to worship this same image that they were instructed by God to look to for deliverance...they had idolized this image to such a degree of affection that it became the object of their worship....

Re: Concerning Dave. B's New Testament - gbausc - 04-16-2008

Shlama Akhi,

14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus The Son of Man is going to be lifted up,
15. So that every person who believes in him shall not be lost, but shall have eternal life. John 3:14,15


Re: Concerning Dave. B's New Testament - Thirdwoe - 04-17-2008

Thanks for that verse Dave....I had forgot it was there...

Re: Concerning Dave. B's New Testament - ograabe - 04-20-2008

April 20, 2008
Shlama Akhi Dave,

After carefully considering your well written arguments for Jesus as ???forsaken??? by God, I return to my personal opinion that the wide range of possible meanings makes ???forsaken??? an inapropriate English word. Paul???s semitic metaphor not withstanding, I believe that Jesus??? sacrifice was God???s gift to mankind, and that Jesus was not the target of God???s wrath. That position makes no sense to me based on my reading of the scriptures.

According to Lamsa, ???The Aramaic word shabakthani is derived from shabak which means to keep, to allow, to spare, to leave, and to forgive. The meaning of this word, like the meanings of many other Aramaic words, is determined by the context. For example, shabak li, which means allow me. Saul killed all males, but he shabak, spared the women, shabaklan khoben, forgive us our trespasses.Shabak li lakhma, keep me some bread. Even today in Aramaic we say God has kept us, or spared us for this cause, or for this mission, or for this destiny.???

It seems to me that the original meaning of "Eli, Eli, lemana shabak-thani."must be something less extreme than ???forsaken??? given the wide range of meanings for shabak-thani, and more directly related to Jesus??? immediate condition. I believe it would be unlikely that he was reciting an Aramaic version Psalm 22, but even that would make more sense to me than your interpretation.



Re: Concerning Dave. B's New Testament - sean - 04-21-2008

Jesus was not made sin, he was a sin offering. Sin is something that one commits, this is where alot of people get it wrong. Similar to the sin offering in the old testament.

Re: Concerning Dave. B's New Testament - sean - 04-21-2008

According to hebrews 9-14, Jesus offered himself to God, without blemish. If Jesus was made sin on the cross, the whole salvation plan for mankind does not make sense anymore, this is dangerous. Jesus was a pure,holy, unblemished sacrifice for our sins, amen, and he is still holy and will always be holy, he is truly our saviour and our redeemer.
See leviticus 6-25'.....the sin offering be killed before the lord,it is most holy'. Also hebrew 7-26.' pure, without evil, and undefiled' (lamsa translation).

Re: Concerning Dave. B's New Testament - gbausc - 04-21-2008

Shlama All,

I must repeat myself, it seems, in order to keep the record straight. I have never said that God forsook His Son, Yeshua. We were discussing what Yeshua cried from the cross. His words are identical to The Peshitta text of Psalm 22:1- a translation of The Hebrew :"Eli Eli lama azabthani."

Every translation of Psalm 22:1 has: My God , my God, why have you forsaken me? This is what our Lord meant. If you want to discuss why He said it, so be it, but it is what he said, and it is fruitless to deny it, as there is no sound reasoning behind the denial. I am not arguing what God did; I am arguing what Yeshua said. Please stop confusing the issue. I also never said Yeshua was the object of God's wrath, nor do I believe that He was.

Sean wrote:
Quote:If Jesus was made sin on the cross, the whole salvation plan for mankind does not make sense anymore, this is dangerous.
Sean, 2 Corinthians 5:21 says "He became sin for us". It does not say "sin offering"; If Paul had meant sin offering, he would have said "sin offering". How can it be dangerous to affirm and repeat plain scripture?
The Aramaic word "Khateetha" is found 89 times in The Peshitta NT. Nowhere does it mean "sin offering" that I can see. It always means "sin'. There are other words for "sin offering"; sometimes "khatatha" and "Khataha" can metaphorically refer to a sin offering. Besides, the same word is used twice in the same sentence of v. 21 and clearly does not refer to a sin offering the first time; it would be very confusing to give it two widely different meanings in the same sentence, especially when paul clearly is teaching theology in this passage. He would have used the word "debkha" (sacrifice) or "qorbana" (offering) in conjunction with "khateetha".