Oh Zorba!

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 Paul EMail PaulView member profileCheck IP address of this member "Oh Zorba!"
Nov-10-2002 at 06:52 AM (GMT3)
» Last edited by Paul on Nov-10-2002 at 07:13 AM (GMT3)

Caught you red-handed again!

Akhay, in some manuscripts of the Greek versions of the NT we read with astonishment:

"And if I give all my possessions to feed {the poor,} and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing." (1 Corinthians 13:3, GNT)

WOW. What an dumb reading! Here's how the error was made:

The Aramaic root dqy can, and does indeed, mean "to burn"......HOWEVER, it can also mean "to boast."

It is obvious that Zorba mistranslated this word and the entire meaning of the verse was confused...here is the original reading of the Aramaic:

"And if I give all my possessions to feed {the poor,} and if I surrender my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, it profits me nothing." (1 Corinthians 13:3, Peshitta)

The final nail in the coffin is that the Greek manuscripts disagree, some have "boast" (c.f. New American Standard version) and some have "burn." (c.f., King James Version)

So the disagreement in the Greek texts points to an Aramaic original!

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

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 Table of contents

RE: Oh Zorba!
Larry_Kelsey — Nov-10-2002 at 04:30 PM (1)
Speaking of 1 Corinthians....
Andrew Gabriel Roth — Nov-10-2002 at 08:21 PM (2)
RE: Speaking of 1 Corinthians....
Keith — Nov-10-2002 at 10:11 PM (3)
RE: Speaking of 1 Corinthians....
Andrew Gabriel Roth — Nov-12-2002 at 04:14 AM (7)
RE: Speaking of 1 Corinthians....
Paul — Nov-12-2002 at 04:40 AM (8)
RE: Oh Zorba!
Rob — Nov-11-2002 at 09:57 PM (4)
Yaqub 3:5
Paul — Nov-12-2002 at 02:26 AM (5)
2 Corinthians 11:29
Paul — Nov-12-2002 at 02:32 AM (6)
which greek mss?
judge — Nov-18-2002 at 02:23 PM (9)
Over on CARM?
The_Thadman — Nov-18-2002 at 09:23 PM (10)
RE: which greek mss?
Paul — Nov-19-2002 at 09:09 AM (11)

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 Larry_Kelsey EMail Larry_KelseyView member profileCheck IP address of this member 1. "RE: Oh Zorba!"
Nov-10-2002 at 04:30 PM (GMT3)
Shlama Akhi Paul,

Nice one, rakhmi! I looked high and low for every significant difference I could find between GNT and PNT during that 6-month layoff. This chapter had me fooled. The most I could remember finding is that most Greek-to-English translations didn't come across with the full 'love in my heart' theme (at least that's the way Lamsa translated verses 1,2, and 3. From everything I can remember the Greek had 'in me.'
Anyway, this post of yours and the 1st Cor. 7:36-38 passage and the beautiful poetry in 2nd Cor. 4:8-9 should give those Greek primacists something to think about. By the way, I keep losing track of that 2nd Cor. post. Hope you don't forget to make a footnote from it!

Shlama w'Burkate, Larry Kelsey

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 Andrew Gabriel Roth EMail Andrew Gabriel RothCheck IP address of this member 2. "Speaking of 1 Corinthians...."
Nov-10-2002 at 08:21 PM (GMT3)
Shlama akhay
Here is an example of the exact same type of primacy proof in 1 Corinthians, as discussed in "Signs", p.249-252:

Now on to the second example, and for this we need two translations to make the point:

For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

1 Corhinthians 11:10 (KJV)


Power on her head? Well maybe another translation will help:


So a woman should wear a covering on her head as a sign of authority because the angels are watching.

1 Corinthians 11:10 (NLT)



So why would one translator use “power” and the other “covering”? The answer has to do with how the apostle Paul thinks in a semitic framework.

In the Peshitta NT the word used is sholtana. In most cases, this word does in fact mean “power”, and so we can see how it might be translated as such into Greek. However, sholtana also has a secondary meaning of how power is reflected in the person who has or does not have it. So, if the person is a king, his crown is his covering AND his authority/power. For a woman then, in the context of being submissive, her veil—is her sign of authority and her covering as well.

Now, in the Greek, the word for power used in this verse is exousia, which did not originally have the secondary meaning of “covering”.

For proof of this assertion, I turn to what is probably the largest collection of ancient Greek manuscripts and study tools available anywhere, the Perseus Project at Tufts University. Their interactive dictionaries show all the shades of meaning of a Greek word wherever it appears in the literature, and not once is this “covering” meaning used:

exous-ia, hê, (exesti) power, authority to do a thing, c. inf., chairein kai nosein e. paresti S.Fr.88.11 codd.; autôi e. ên saphôs eidenai , cf. ; exousian ho nomos dedôke permission to do . ., ; e. poiein , etc.; e. labein , , etc.; labôn e. hôste . . ; epi têi tês eirênês e. with the freedom permitted by peace, : c. gen. objecti, e. echein thanatou power of life and death, Poll.8.86; pragma hou tên e. echousin alloi control over . ., Diog.Oen.57; e. tinos power over, licence in a thing, tou legein ; en megalêi e. tou adikein IBID=au=, cf. ti=; kata tên ouk e. tês agôniseôs from want of qualification for . ., : abs., power, authority, E.Fr.784.

2. abuse of authority, licence, arrogance, hubris kai e. , cf. au=, ; hê agan e. IBID=au==lr; ametros e. OGI669.51 (i A.D.).

3. Lit. Crit., e. poiêtikê poetic licence, Str.1.2.17, Jul.Or.1.10b.


II. office, Magistracy, archai kai e. ; hoi en tais e. ; hoi en e. ontes IDEM=; hoi ep' exousiôn LXXDa.3.2; hê hupatikê e. the consulate, , etc.; also hê hupatos e. D.H.7.1; hê tamieutikê e. the quaestorship, D.H.8.77; dêmarchikê e., v. dêmarchikos; hê tou thalamou e., in the Roman empire, LORDship of the bedchamber, Hdn.1.12.3.


2. concrete, body of Magistrates, D.H.11.32; hai e. (as we say) the authorities, Ev.Luc.12.11,al., Plu.Phil.17.


b. hê e. as an honorary title, POxy.1103 (iv A.D.), etc.


III. abundance of means, resources, exousias epideixis ; ploutos kai e. , cf. ; endeesterôs ê pros tên e. ; tôn anankaiôn e. ; excessive wealth, opp. ousia, Com.Adesp.25a.5D.

IV. pomp, Plu.Aem.34.


Now the Greek School will counter, “But this is Koine, not Classical Greek”, and that is my point as well. Koine was born in Alexandria, Egypt, with the translation of the Septuagint FROM HEBREW SOURCES. This secondary meaning was NOWHERE previously, and came from the double meaning of sholtana...

This is clearly a word play rooted in Semitic and not Hellenistic understanding. I say that because another word for “power” also used elsewhere in the Epistles does not have the secondary meaning of “veil” (#2571- kaluma; see 2 Corinthians 3:13-16), and vice versa, (dunatos, hupo, ischus, kratos). In either case, Paul would have sufficient control in the translation process to pick either an exclusively veil-like or an exclusively power-like word without creating confusion. The reason he did not is because, again, the translator who did it did not have the benefit of this understanding. All he knew was that sholtana was staring back at him from the page. A few years later, when the second letter came to his church, either the skill of the translator had improved in the interim or he was replaced with another who had a better of grasp of the language.

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 Keith EMail KeithView member profileCheck IP address of this member 3. "RE: Speaking of 1 Corinthians...."
Nov-10-2002 at 10:11 PM (GMT3)
Andrew,

Why should women have their heads covered while prophesying? Paul said "because of the angels". Because of the angels? What do angels have to do with a woman's head being covered? Is this a Hebraism?

Keith

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 Andrew Gabriel Roth EMail Andrew Gabriel RothCheck IP address of this member 7. "RE: Speaking of 1 Corinthians...."
Nov-12-2002 at 04:14 AM (GMT3)
Shlama Akhi Keith,

I must admit it is an unusual statement and can only offer suggestions rather than hard proof. The angels are said to be easily frightened off by irreverence and are said to leave because of it. I have only two examples, neither of them exact.

First, in Yochanan 5:1-4, whereby an angel descends to the waters at Siloam and the first infirmed person to hit the water gets healed. The implication is that the rest of the infirmed do not get healed because the angel is only there for an instant and then departs.

Interestingly enough, there is also a parallel to this story in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Essenes wrote that they would never allow handicapped people into their order of the "Yahad" because, and I quote, "they frighten the angels away."

Therefore, it may also be that a woman who is not being submissive by keeping her hair uncovered is also frightening the angels away. However, I have to stress again that I am not proffering this as a hard answer.

Hope this helps a little though!

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth

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 Paul EMail PaulView member profileCheck IP address of this member 8. "RE: Speaking of 1 Corinthians...."
Nov-12-2002 at 04:40 AM (GMT3)
Shlama Akhay Keith w'Andrew,

Keith, if you would allow me to make a politically incorrect statement:

In all of the Semitic faith tradition, be it Judaism, Islam or Christianity - women have traditionally been required to dress modestly and cover their hair with some sort of covering during worship.

In Orthodox Rabbinical Judaism, this practice continues to this day, and in the temple period women were even more restricted in worship.

In it's most extreme contemporary practice, you see the burqa worn by Muslim women.

In the Church of the East parishes, all females who've past the stage of puberty must cover their hair when in the sanctuary of the church.

This practice is not unknown in the West or even here in America. Many of you who are old enough to remember the pre-Vatican 2 Catholic church know that women were required to wear a hat while in church. This is even true in certain strict Protestant circles (i.e., the Quakers or Amish).

So to answer your question, this phrase "because of the angels" just means that Paul is saying that there are angels participating in our worship along with us (as they do in Heaven and even in the Temple when it was standing)...and therefore there should be the utmost propriety in their presence.

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

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 Rob EMail RobView member profileCheck IP address of this member 4. "RE: Oh Zorba!"
Nov-11-2002 at 09:57 PM (GMT3)
Shlama, Akhi Paul,

I'd like to see another instance where "yqd" means 'boast'. Got any?

Thanks Akhi,
Rob

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 Paul EMail PaulView member profileCheck IP address of this member 5. "Yaqub 3:5"
Nov-12-2002 at 02:26 AM (GMT3)
Shlama, Akhi Rob,

>I'd like to see another instance
>where "yqd" means 'boast'. Got
>any?

Great question. "YQD" means literally "to be ardent/zealous/eager" (c.f., Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon under Lexeme 'yqd'). It is in this sense that it figuratively means "boastful."

Check out how Yaqub uses a play on the dual meaning "boast/fire" with this root in Yaqub 3:5 !!!

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

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 Paul EMail PaulView member profileCheck IP address of this member 6. "2 Corinthians 11:29"
Nov-12-2002 at 02:32 AM (GMT3)
Shlama Akhi Rob,

>I'd like to see another instance
>where "yqd" means 'boast'. Got
>any?

Check out Paul's usage of this root in 2 Corinthians 11:29, where it means "eager/resolute/ardent/intense".

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

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 judge EMail judgeView member profileCheck IP address of this member 9. "which greek mss?"
Nov-18-2002 at 02:23 PM (GMT3)

Hi Paul, can you tell me which greek manuscripts vary here. I am in a discussion on another forum about the original language of Pauls letters and this may be a good example, but to have some more detail would be great.

All the best from downunder.

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 The_Thadman EMail The_ThadmanView member profileCheck IP address of this member 10. "Over on CARM?"
Nov-18-2002 at 09:23 PM (GMT3)
Be sure to include the Romans goof, too!

Shlomo,

-Steve Caruso
(aka "The Thadman")
http://www.AramaicNT.org <-- Investigating the mounting evidence that parts of the New Testament were written in Aramaic, not Greek! Articles, Manuscripts, and a "Teach Yourself Aramaic" section (in the works)

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 Paul EMail PaulView member profileCheck IP address of this member 11. "RE: which greek mss?"
Nov-19-2002 at 09:09 AM (GMT3)
Shlama Akhi Michael,

The reading kauchvswmai (kauchswmai, "I might boast") is in manuscripts like Ì46 Í A B 048 33 1739*.

The competing reading, kauqhvsomai (kauqhsomai, "I will burn"), is found in C D F G L 81 1175 1881* and a host of patristic writers. A few other Byzantine Greek readings include: kauqhvswmai (kauqhswmai) ("I might burn") and kauqh' ("it might be burned") read by 1505.

BTW - Dr. Bruce Metzger (the ultimate Greek primacist) notes that the latter reading is a "grammatical monstrosity that cannot be attributed to Paul" (B. M. Metzger, Textual Commentary, page 498).

This is clear evidence of the Aramaic roots of the various Greek texts.

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

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