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"2 Assyrian Churches"
Jul-13-2002 at 04:33 PM (GMT3)
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Shlama Akhay,I would like to know why there are 2 Assyrian Churches. Here are the site: www.cired.org/ace.html (Holy Apostolic Assyrian Church of the East) And home.swipnet.se/samir/index.htm (Ancient Holy Apostolic Catholic Church of the East) B'Mshikha,
Rudolf
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BarKhela |
1. "RE: 2 Assyrian Churches"
Jul-14-2002 at 01:00 AM (GMT3)
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>Shlama Akhay,
>
>I would like to know why
>there are 2 Assyrian Churches.
>Here are the site:
>
>www.cired.org/ace.html (Holy Apostolic Assyrian Church of
>the East)
>
>And
>
>home.swipnet.se/samir/index.htm (Ancient Holy Apostolic Catholic
>Church of the East)
>
>B'Mshikha,
>Rudolf My friend, Rudolf, the second link that you gave is not correct.
Think for yourself.
Question authority.
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rdf |
2. "RE: 2 Assyrian Churches"
Jul-15-2002 at 05:18 PM (GMT3)
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Shlama Akhi Barkhela, >>
>>And
>>
>>home.swipnet.se/samir/index.htm (Ancient Holy Apostolic Catholic
>>Church of the East) Sorry, it should be like this:
http://home.swipnet.se/samir/index.htm
B'Mshikha,
Rudolf
>
>My friend, Rudolf, the second link
>that you gave is not
>correct.
>
>
>Think for yourself.
>Question authority.
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Dean |
3. "RE: 2 Assyrian Churches"
Jul-17-2002 at 09:01 PM (GMT3)
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Hello Rudolf,Firstly, keep in mind that there are many "Assyrian" churches in the world but what I think you are referring to are the 2 Church of the East churches. The difference has to do with the calendar. One church follows the New Calendar (Gregorian) and the other follows the Old calendar (Julian). -Dean
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Paul Younan |
4. "RE: 2 Assyrian Churches"
Jul-18-2002 at 09:41 PM (GMT3)
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Shlama Akhi Rudolf,As Akhan Dean stated, the "Ancient Church of the East" follows the Old Calendar (Julian), whereas the "Holy Apostolic Assyrian Church of the East" follows the New Calendar (Gregorian.) Other than that, they are the same church. Mar Eshai in 1968 decided to make the switch to the Western calendar so that we could celebrate the holidays with the rest of the churches while we are in our Diaspora here in the West. Some people did not like that decision and elected their own Patriarch, and started this schizmatic branch. The election of a Patriarch while one is still on his seat is, of course, illegal in terms of Canon law. Nevertheless, I know that both sides are working for rapproachment and I hope that day will come soon when they are united again. Fk^rwbw 0ml4
Peshitta.org
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5. "RE: 2 Assyrian Churches"
Jul-20-2002 at 04:48 PM (GMT3)
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Shlama Akhi Dean and Paul,It just cross in my mind that the Ancient Church of the East is more original regarding to their term "Ancient". Thank you in advance. B'Mshikha,
Rudolf >
>As Akhan Dean stated, the "Ancient
>Church of the East" follows
>the Old Calendar (Julian), whereas
>the "Holy Apostolic Assyrian Church
>of the East" follows the
>New Calendar (Gregorian.) Other
>than that, they are the
>same church.
>
>Mar Eshai in 1968 decided to
>make the switch to the
>Western calendar so that we
>could celebrate the holidays with
>the rest of the churches
>while we are in our
>Diaspora here in the West.
>
>
>Some people did not like that
>decision and elected their own
>Patriarch, and started this schizmatic
>branch. The election of
>a Patriarch while one is
>still on his seat is,
>of course, illegal in terms
>of Canon law.
>
>Nevertheless, I know that both sides
>are working for rapproachment and
>I hope that day will
>come soon when they are
>united again.
>
>
>
>Fk^rwbw 0ml4
>
> Peshitta.org
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Paul Younan |
6. "RE: 2 Assyrian Churches"
Jul-20-2002 at 05:01 PM (GMT3)
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Shlama Akhi Rudolf, >It just cross in my mind
>that the Ancient Church of
>the East is more original
>regarding to their term "Ancient". That is true - they are more original. Many families are divided where some members attend one church and others attend the other. My family, for instance, is split up between these two branches. Although I agree with the "Old Calendar" side that it should never have been changed, nevertheless I follow Mar Dinkha and the "New Calendar" side because he is the validly ordained Patriarch while the other one (Mar Addai) is schismatic and not validly ordained. In my opinion you can't just go and elect a new patriarch every time you disagree with a decision. You must work to change the decision within your own church if you feel that strongly about it. This very thing is the reason why there's a ridiculous number of "denominations" in the one body of Christ - and this division hinders our witnessing to the unbelievers. Meshikha prayed for our unity so that our witness would be more effective (Yukhanan 17:21) Fk^rwbw 0ml4
Peshitta.org
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Dean |
8. "RE: 2 Assyrian Churches"
Jul-21-2002 at 01:15 AM (GMT3)
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Shlama Akhey,Lets remember that using the old calendar does not mean its more accurate or authentic than the new one. From what I've read, the Julian calendar (while it may have been in use at the time of M'shikha) is not accurate at all. So just cuz a group of renegade believers band together and decide unilaterally to continue in the old calendar while the duly elected Patriarch decides with full authority to shift to a more accurate calendar doesn’t make them (old calendrists) more original or even more ancient! Not everything old is right ! And not everything new is right, either! Having said that, I do believe that there are some viable solutions and compromises which could satisfy both sides ... for example, since calendars are man made to begin with... they both could adopt a blended one in which movable feasts (such as Pascha, Ascension, Pentecost, etc.) are tied to the Julian, while immovable feast (like Christmas, Epiphany ,etc) are tied to the Gregorian? -Akha Dean
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BarKhela |
9. "RE: 2 Assyrian Churches"
Jul-21-2002 at 05:22 AM (GMT3)
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>Shlama Akhey,
>
>Lets remember that using the old
>calendar does not mean its
>more accurate or authentic than
>the new one.
>
>From what I've read, the Julian
>calendar (while it may have
>been in use at the
>time of M'shikha) is not
>accurate at all.
>
>So just cuz a group of
>renegade believers band together and
>decide unilaterally to continue in
>the old calendar while the
>duly elected Patriarch decides with
>full authority to shift to
>a more accurate calendar doesn’t
>make them (old calendrists) more
>original or even more ancient!
>
>
>Not everything old is right !
>
>
>And not everything new is right,
>either!
>
>Having said that, I do believe
>that there are some viable
>solutions and compromises which could
>satisfy both sides ...
>for example, since calendars are
>man made to begin with...
>they both could adopt a
>blended one in which movable
>feasts (such as Pascha,
>Ascension, Pentecost, etc.) are tied
>to the Julian, while immovable
>feast (like Christmas, Epiphany ,etc)
>are tied to the Gregorian?
>
>
>-Akha Dean While I am in agreement with you, Akhi Dean, about the intermingling of the ancient and updated calendars, I do think that the Julian calendar should still dictate feast days. If I had my way, Christmas, Easter, and Lent would be no more because they are linked to pagan festivals. Thankfully, I don't have my way in that matter  I visited www.cired.org once more to check out the standard calendar of the CoE. I noticed that they celebrate only one day of the Pesacha. Why is that?
Think for yourself.
Question authority.
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Dean |
12. "RE: 2 Assyrian Churches"
Jul-24-2002 at 02:33 AM (GMT3)
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Shlama BarKhela,Lets not forget that celebrating the coming of the Messiah is NOT pagan, it’s the greatest event in human history and I’d expect followers TO celebrate like crazy. Having said that, its unfortunate that the western churches have imported many pagan elements into the celebrations of Christmas and Easter, but the events underlying the holidays are worthy of our attention and celebrations. I appreciate, for instance, how the Church of the East has kept the “Christmas” celebration focused on the baptism of Meshikha (Luqa 3:21) and not so much as a birthday party. Additionally I love how the names of the festivals are retained in the Aramaic and are free of pagan associations: The words “easter” and “christmas” are not present! >I visited www.cired.org once more to check out >the standard calendar of the CoE. I noticed >that they celebrate only one day of the >Pesacha. Why is that? How many Paskha's do you expect? -Akha Dean
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10. "RE: 2 Assyrian Churches"
Jul-21-2002 at 05:18 PM (GMT3)
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Shlama Akhi Paul,
>>It just cross in my mind
>>that the Ancient Church of
>>the East is more original
>>regarding to their term "Ancient".
>
>That is true - they are
>more original. Many families
>are divided where some members
>attend one church and others
>attend the other. My
>family, for instance, is split
>up between these two branches.
One more question, does it mean that the "Ancient" Church Of the East always keep the "Semitic" nuance rather than Her Sister in Chicago? >Meshikha prayed for our unity so
>that our witness would be
>more effective (Yukhanan 17:21) Maybe all the Churches in the world should be unity  B'Mshikha,
Rudolf
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Paul Younan |
11. "RE: 2 Assyrian Churches"
Jul-22-2002 at 06:50 AM (GMT3)
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Shlama Akhi Rudolf, >One more question, does it mean
>that the "Ancient" Church Of
>the East always keep the
>"Semitic" nuance rather than Her
>Sister in Chicago? Both branches of the CoE are mainly based and most populous in the Middle East - however both have parishes in the Western world, including Chicago. There's nothing "Semitic" about the Julian calendar. Both the Julian and the Gregorian are "Western" calendars and both are imperfect. The Semitic calendars (ancient Mesopotamian and its children the Hebrew and Arab lunar-based calendars) are also imperfect. There is no perfect calendar because the way we keep time is imperfect. There are people much more learned than I on this topic - but rest assured that keeping the Julian calendar does not make one more "Semitic" than the other. It's just that the ancient CoE based its liturgical cycle on the Julian calendar, which the schizmatic branch continues to do, whereas the valid Patriarchate changed it to the more accurate Gregorian calendar. If I had it my way, I would use Akhan Dean's suggestion and make a mixture of the two. Or maybe even go back to the lunar-based calendar of ancient Beth-Nahrain (Mesopotamia.) >>Meshikha prayed for our unity so
>>that our witness would be
>>more effective (Yukhanan 17:21)
>
>Maybe all the Churches in the
>world should be unity Absolutely. Our current condition is a disgrace, a laughing-stock, a hindrance to the spreading of the Gospel and NOT what Meshikha intended. And no church/denomination is perfect, no matter what their pedigree, age, calendar or manuscripts - all have their faults. Fk^rwbw 0ml4
Peshitta.org
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