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use of OS by ancient Aramaic-speaking Christians
#61
Akhi Yuri,

Oh, I see. So when Mar Aphrahat quotes the Peshitta VERBATIM against the Old Scratch, you bring up the "Greek" - as if the "Greek" is one single entity that reads the same way in all the manuscripts, especially comparing Byzantine and Western texts.

Now you change your story and have the Peshitta in Aphrahat's hands, right along with Old Scratch, supposedly.

What else could you say?

In your chronology, I know it's hard to accept that the Peshitta was around during the lifetime of Aphrahat. That's troublesome to your theories.

How many more examples do you want? Do you want a contest to see how many more times, exponentially more times, that Aphrahat agrees with the Peshitta AGAINST Old Scratch?
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#62
Akhi Dave,

Dave Wrote:How can you say Ephrem doesn't count when his counterpart in the east is doing the same exact thing?

On this website, I'm not sure if you noticed or not, we deal with an eastern text. I thought the URL said it all, but apparently not.

Because of that little fact, the eastern fathers are consulted. Not the western fathers, who wouldn't have been expected to have used an eastern text.

Nor would we expect that Aphrahat (and, Tatian), both Assyrians, would have used western texts. Again, read Tatian's address to the Greeks to find out how fond he was of them.

What's so confusing about this? I don't understand?

Peshitta - Eastern text. Eastern fathers count.

Old Scratch - Western text. Western fathers count.

This website - <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.peshitta.org">http://www.peshitta.org</a><!-- w --> .... not <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.oldscratch.org">http://www.oldscratch.org</a><!-- w -->

If you find a western text being used by eastern fathers, then I would be very interested in reading about it. Until then - why do you bring up Ephraem - as if I even expect Ephraem to have used the Peshitta?
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#63
I love you too Paul, and were beating up each other over this.

I'm just gonna have to agree to disagree over it. Unless I find something that would totally disprove what information there is about Tatian's Diatesseron out there, then would I be able to see your side in it.
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#64
shlomo Dave wYuri,

Why do you keep bringing up the OS as the most important text in the Syriac-Aramaic world. When the Western Aramaic Churches say that they weren't even aware of it existance until it was discovered?

If you follow the path that textual Tradition has taken in Western Aramaic, then you know each time there was a new Translation produced, it died out and the Peshitto always prevailed over them.

I would an answer to both these question/statements (a clear answer)?

poosh bashlomo,
keefa-moroon
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#65
Shlama Akhi Dave,

Dave Wrote:I love you too Paul, and were beating up each other over this.

I'm just gonna have to agree to disagree over it. Unless I find something that would totally disprove what information there is about Tatian's Diatesseron out there, then would I be able to see your side in it.

Great!

Research the Arabic Diatesseron by reading A. S. Marmardji (Beirut, Lebanon: Imprimerie Catholique, 1935)), a native Arabic-speaker, who produced overwhelming evidence that the Arabic version was a direct translation from the Aramaic original, and not Greek, by showing how certain ungrammatical Arabic forms followed the Aramaic to a tee.

Remember, Abul Faraj Abdullah ibn a-Tayyib was a prominent priest within the Church of the East, being a secretary of the Patriarch Elias I. You're not talking about some unknown guy here.

If he said he translated Tatian's Aramaic harmony, I believe him. What motivation would he have, in the 11th century, to lie about it?
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#66
You want a truley honest answer from me Abudar?
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#67
From Persia, we have the Persian Diatessaron (Diatessaron Persiano, ed. G. Messina, "Biblica et Orientalia" 14, Rome, 1951).

This Persian Diatessaron was translated from Aramaic into Persian, and it reads very differently from the Arabic Diatessaron just about in every passage.

There are many different versions of the Diatessaron that survive at this time. From the scientific perspective, there can be no a priori reason to prefer any of these versions to any other version.

The whole question of the Diatessaron is extremely complex. Even if one approaches this area with complete objectivity, and even if one has studied this area for years, having had appropriate prior training, there are still many puzzles there.

Bringing any prior theological presuppositions, or the appeals to authority, into this complex area will certainly not help.

Shlama,

Yuri.
Yuri Kuchinsky | Toronto | <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm">http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/bbl.htm</a><!-- m -->
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#68
Quote:Bringing any prior theological presuppositions, or the appeals to authority, into this complex area will certainly not help.

This is very true. I can't have a bias towards any sort of text if I really want to learn any truth inthe matters here. For me, I really can't have any sort of hinderance that way.
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#69
Dave Wrote:You want a truley honest answer from me Abudar?

Yes! :)

keefa-moroon
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#70
Ok.

Say you were in your house/apartment, and you just sat down. All the sudden, you felt this powerful immense presence above you, and it dropped down around you, and engulfed you. This presence told you to take out your bible and read, and you did. At that moment, when you opened the page, it came alive. A multicolored, everchanging glow radiated from behind the words printed on the page. And those words were so alive with expression, that they filled you with love and made you cry, to the point that you were unable to read farther than one page. The expression in the words was beyond your ability to feel.

When you read, you noticed words that were bright, and others that were slightly darker, and still others that were very dark or blacked out. At that point, you knew that those words that were bright, were translated correctly, while the others were slightly off or completely wrong, hence their darkness.

When The Lords presence lifted and you went to put your little bible away, you noticed it was a new king james new testament.



Would you have issues with The Lord since he utilized this greek text?


I will go farther, but would like you to answer the question.
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#71
shlomo oh Dave,

Dave Wrote:Ok.

Would you have issues with The Lord since he utilized this greek text?
I will go farther, but would like you to answer the question.

Before I answer your question, first answer this, what does this have to do with the Western Aramaic Churches stating that they weren't aware of the existance of the OS until it got discovered, and that Peshitto has been the text that won over all attempts at making new translations from the Greek?

poosh bashlomo,
keefa-moroon
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#72
Shlama Akhi Yuri,

yuku Wrote:This Persian Diatessaron was translated from Aramaic into Persian, and it reads very differently from the Arabic Diatessaron just about in every passage.

William L. PETERSEN, Hugoye, Vol. 6, No. 2
July 2003 Wrote:
A prerequisite for reliable and proper use of a Diatessaronic witness is a thorough understanding of its transmission-history. Although Shedinger used Giuseppe Messina's edition of the Persian Harmony, he apparently failed to notice Messina's analysis of the text, for in the "Introduction" to his edition Messina addresses the subject of Shedinger's book: the OT quotations in the (Persian) Diatessaron (pp. lxviii-lxxvi). Messina (* 1893-??? 1951) was the world's expert on this text. In the process of preparing his edition, Messina concluded that the Persian translator, as he translated from Syriac into Persian in the thirteenth century, frequently "improved" the OT quotations by referencing the Targumim and/or the Hebrew Bible in a Semitic language. Messina's textual examples (two of which parallel pericopes examined by Shedinger) are unambiguous and definitive. Therefore, Shedinger cannot use the Persian Harmony as he does, for Messina demonstrated half a century ago that its OT citations have frequently been revised to agree with texts much later than the Diatessaron. Even if these eight pages in Italian escaped our author's notice, it is odd that he also missed an English pr??cis of them in a book he frequently cites.

There's the source for the "different" readings than the Arabic Diatesseron.

You can keep the Persian - I'll trust the Arabic, thank you very much. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#73
Quote:Before I answer your question, first answer this, what does this have to do with the Western Aramaic Churches stating that they weren't aware of the existance of the OS until it got discovered, and that Peshitto has been the text that won over all attempts at making new translations from the Greek?

Has nothing to do with that. You asked me this:

Quote:Why do you keep bringing up the OS as the most important text in the Syriac-Aramaic world. When the Western Aramaic Churches say that they weren't even aware of it existance until it was discovered?

You wanted to know why I felt this text was important, why I would chase after it when the historical evidence available was sparce or even non-existant throughout the ages.

I'm sorry, but I'm unable to "honestly" answer that without giving credit to the one who leads me onward in this. Why else would I do this Keefa? If I have no witness from above throughout my search, then I'm only relying on guesses, theories, and historical data from men, which is a poker game to rely on.

Let everything be establish by 2 or 3 witnesses. My witness and confirmation in all things is from above. Let GOD be true and all men false. I will trust Him only, in this. I refuse to totally trust any man in this endeavor because the information and data has been tampered with throughout the ages by mankind, in all camps. A witness and confirmation from above must be the defining factor for me, since I know better now. For me to "turn-aside" from this sort of insight would be detrimental later on when we answer for our deeds. To just weight the odds and choose a particular text that I wanna trust or think that I can, is witnessing to myself, and my witness would be false.

Behind every text lies the original writings that satan went out of his way to try and stomp out, just because Jesus boldly declared that His words would not disapear. I'm looking for the cleaner text that was copied nearest to the original, that is witnessed to me this way. I don't care if it is in greek, aramaic, or whatever. Once I have done what I'm suppose to do in that sense, then He will lead me into another area that will help. So forth and so on.

You wanted to know why, and I gave you why and how. Now, care to answer my question? I feel it is very important.
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#74
shlomo oh Dave,

Dave Wrote:When you read, you noticed words that were bright, and others that were slightly darker, and still others that were very dark or blacked out. At that point, you knew that those words that were bright, were translated correctly, while the others were slightly off or completely wrong, hence their darkness.

When The Lords presence lifted and you went to put your little bible away, you noticed it was a new king james new testament.

In regards to your revelations, that is between you and the almighty. We depend on him for guidance in our life.

At the same time, I believe that Our Lord left us with everything we need from Scripture to oral Tradition to guide us, and from time to time He has elevated people amongst us to the level of Saint, so that we remember to follow the good example, and live our life by His Way.

Dave Wrote:Would you have issues with The Lord since he utilized this greek text?

Since the Greek Text is a translation of the original Aramaic Text, then the message in it would be same (where the Greek text remains true to the original Aramaic Text).

Our Lord has the right to us any language He wants, that's His perogative!

poosh bashlomo,
keefa-moroon
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#75
That was a very honest answer.

My answer is no, but with a different reason. For me, the language didn't matter because I could read no other langage but english. And after a while, I felt this was a blessing, because I held to no sort of preconceived idea that it had to be in this or that. I don't care what language is the original, I just want to get closest to it as possible. I must trust what He shows me and continue to follow His leading in this.


Quote:In regards to your revelations, that is between you and the almighty. We depend on him for guidance in our life.

This is exactly correct. He is my guidance not just in life, but in His will. I faithfully asked from my heart to work with His word, and He granted me that. He didn't leave me on my own to figure it out and be confused, He helps me along the way. Also, you are exactly right, it is between Him and I, and it is not something I can talk about to professionals in this sort of arena. What I hold to as my standard of proof will not be what anyone in this sort of field adheres to. I understand it more than you know, in fact I feel honored to that He would work with me this way.
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