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Saadia Gaon
#16
Shlama Akhi Keefa,


Q's:

(1) What language did Abraham pass on to his progeny, Ishmael and Issac, if not Akkadian?

(2) You believe that the Semitic language is the oldest known form of a language on Earth. Is there evidence to support this?

(3) Prove that classical Arabic, as a tongue, was not only heavily influenced by Aramaic, but descended directly from Aramaic.
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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#17
Shlama Akhi bar-Khela,

How could Hebrew exist before the first Hebrew? (Isaac)?

How could Arabic exist before the first Arab? (Ishmael)?

Akhi - how could Greek exist before the first Greek? English before the first Englishman?

Who spoke Arabic before Ishmael, the father of the 13 Arab tribes? Were there non-Arab people speaking Arabic before the birth of Ishmael? Because there sure weren't any Arabs before him.

There weren't any Jews or Hebrews before Abraham, either. Were there non-Hebrew people speaking Hebrew before the birth of Isaac?
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#18
[quote="Paul Younan"]Shlama Akhi bar-Khela,

How could Hebrew exist before the first Hebrew? (Isaac)?

Hebrew could not have existed before Isaac

How could Arabic exist before the first Arab? (Ishmael)?

Arabic could not have existed before the first Arab

Akhi - how could Greek exist before the first Greek? English before the first Englishman?

Impossible

I do see where you're getting at. Hebrew and Arabic (sisters) had one noble ancestor. But I am not convinced that it was Aramaic. I hypothesize that Aramaic is an older sister who tutored her sisters in the ways before her own--the ways of their father, Akkadian.[/b]
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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#19
Fuel behind current hypothesis...

"....Modern linguistic scholarship established, certainly by the middle of the 19th century, that the Arabic language, both in the Qur'an and in other texts, contains a significant number of loan-words from several dialects of Aramaic (Syriac, Babylonian Aramaic, etc). Aramaic was the principal cultural language of the area between the Sinai and the Tigris for more than a millennium and it exercised a considerable influence on all the languages of the region, including the Hebrew of the later portions of the Old Testament. The Arabs participated in the civilisation of the ancient Near East, many of them were Christians or Jews, so there is nothing surprising about the fact that they borrowed heavily from Aramaic." Review Of Die syro-aram??ische Lesart des Koran: Ein Beitrag zur Entschl??sselung der Koransprache ('Christoph Luxenberg', 2000, Das Arabische Buch: Berlin) By Fran??ois de Blois

Borrowed heavily, yes. But what are you saying? Are you saying that Aramaic was already well established as a language before the separation of Ishmael from his Akkadian speaking father?
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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#20
Shlama Akhi bar-Khela,

I am sure that Abraham, living in Mesopotamia, was well versed in Akkadian. But you have to remember that the tribes he came from were the Chaldean tribes. The Chaldeans were 5 tribes who invaded southern Mesopotamia from Aram. They spoke Aramaic. They were not natives to Mesopotamia (like the Sumerians, Babylonian and Assyrians.)

The Chaldeans were late-comers. They were invaders from the deserts of Aram. They spoke Aramaic.

Abraham was probably bi-lingual in both Akkadian and his native Chaldee (Aramaic.)

This is why Jacob is called a "wandering Aramean" in the Old Testament. If Jacob was an "Aramean", then his father Isaac was also an Aramean. If Isaac was an "Aramean", then his father Abraham was an Aramean - and his half-brother Ishmael was 50% Aramean and 50% Egyptian.

That's why Hebrew and Arabic share 80-90% of their vocabulary with Aramaic - they both descend from "wandering Arameans."
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#21
Linguistically speaking, do you have a general knowledge of Arabic and Hebrew.
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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#22
Shlama Akhi Paul,


So you're saying that both Hebrew and Arabic were weened from the same mother, Aramaic. You're also saying that these sisters separated with Ishmael and Issac. Finally, you're saying the variation between the two languages is consequential to centuries of long distance. As a result, they developed their own characteristics. Right? I can accept this. But why do philologists compare Arabic and Hebrew to Akkadian if they descended from Aramaic?
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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#23
shlomo oh bar_khela,

This is a dialogue I had with a professor at a university:
-I pointed out to him that what he was teaching was incorrect in regards to the middle-east.
-After debating with him and giving him my proofs.
-I asked him if he had physically done some imperical research on the subject.
-His answer to me was that they had to depend on the researchers from the middle-east and trust them at their word. He and other western researchers depdend on them to write up theories and books.

I come from the middle-east, and in the middle-east there are several theories as to the origin of the Arabic language:

-Religious Muslims claim that it came down from God as a language and that the Quran is the only pure Arabic Book that should be learned to know this language, which they call the language (Arabic) of God.
-Researchers claim that it came from Yemen, and that it was spoken in the area of the Arabian Peninsula by the Arab tribes. And also the Arabic that was spoken by the Arab Tribes differs from that found in the Quran. What is refered to as classical Arabic, is the Arabic found in the Quran.
-Researchers also claim that Arabic is a slang version of Aramaic, which over time due to the isolation of the Arab tribes have diverted from Aramaic.

The schools in the middle-east refer to the Arabic alphbet as "hroof al-abgadiye" which means the "ABGD" alphabet, and that Arabic descends from Aramaic. Also Arabic is called the language of "dad" becuase it has a letter which is unique to it.

On official Arabic government documents the first six pages are numbered as follow: abgad, hawaz, hati, kalman, s'fas, qrsht. As you all know these word represents the Aramaic alphabet, since the Arabic alphabet differs from the "abgd" listing.

Here's the Arabic alphabet:
a, b, t, th, g, h, kh, d, dh, r, z, s, sh, s, d, t, z, ', gh, f, q, k, l, m, n, h, w, y

1: <- Arabic

Here's the Aramaic alphabet:
a, b, g, d, h, w, z, h, t, y, k, l, m, n, s, ', p, s, q, r, sh, t

2: <- Aramaic

Alphabet comparison:
1:a = 2:a
1:b = 2:b
1:t = 2:t
1:th = 2:th ('t' and 'th' in Aramaic are the same letters) (notice how Arabic has them listed next to each other)
1:g = 2:g
1:h = 2:h ('h' and 'kh' in Eastern Aramaic are the same letters in reference only to 'h')
1:kh = 2:kh ('k' and 'kh' are the same letter, but are not the same as the 'h' of before) (Here we notice that in Arabic "h" and "kh" follow each other a clear indication of Eastern Aramaic influence)
1:d = 2:d
1:dh = 2:dh ('d' and 'dh' are the same letter in Aramaic) (Also notice how the Arabic alphabet lists them one after the other)
1:r = 2:r
1:z = 2:z
1:s = 2:s
1:sh = 2:sh
1:s = 2:s
1:d = 2: (The "dad" is not found in Aramaic) (It's because of this letter that Arabic is called the language of "dad")
1:t = 2:t
1:z = 2:z (The "zah" is not found in Aramaic)
1:' = 2:'
1:gh = 2:gh ('g' and 'gh' are the same letter)
1:f = 2:f ('p' and 'f' are the same letter)
1:q = 2:q
1:k = 2:k
1:l = 2:l
1:m = 2:m
1:n = 2:n
1:h = 2:h
1:w = 2:w
1:y = 2:y

Let's compare some Arabic words with Aramaic (i.e. those words that have letters not found in Aramaic):
ar'a <- Earth (Aramaic)
ard <- Earth (Arabic) (The 'd' here is the 'dad')
(There's an Arabic pattern of writing some Aramaic 'ayn into dad)
---
hmas <- sour (Aramaic) (Here the 's' is 'sodh')
hmad <- sour (Arabic) (Here the 'd' is 'dad')
(There's an Arabic pattern of writing Aramaic sodh as dad. Notice that the Arabic lists sod and dad next to each other)
---
tlam <- oppress (Aramaic) (The 't' is the 'teth', also called in Arabic 'tah')
zlam <- oppress (Arabic) (The 'z' is the 'Zah')
(There's an Arabic pattern of writing Aramaic teth as Zah. Notice that Arabic lists the zah after the tah)

Here's some other patterns found in Arabic in relation to Aramaic:
sha-??l <- Ask (Aramaic)
sa-ala <- Ask (Arabic)
sayfa <- Sword (Aramaic)
sayf <- Sword (Arabic)
sa'ra <- Hair (Aramaic)
sha'r <- Hair (Arabic)
(There's an Arabic pattern of writing Aramaic 's' as 'sh' or vice versa, or keeping them the same. We see that 's' and 'sh' are listed in Arabic one after the other)
---
'lab <- to have the upper hand (Aramaic)
ghalab <- to have the upper hand (Arabic)
(There's an Arabic pattern of writing Aramaic 'ayn as a ghayn. We see also that the Arabic alphabet lists the ghayn after the 'ayn)
---
tlath <- Three (Aramaic)
thlath <- Three (Arabic)
(There's an Arabic pattern of writing the Aramaic 't' as 'th'. We note that in Aramaic the 't' and 'th' are the same letter. We also note the Arabic lists the 't' and 'th' one after the other)
---
htaf <- snatch (Aramaic)
khatf <- snatch (Arabic)
madhbha <- Alter (Aramaic)
madhbah <- Alter (Arabic)
(There's an Arabic pattern of writing the Aramaic 'h' (Heth) as 'kh'. As noted before in Eastern Aramaic the heth is pronounced by 'kh'. We notice that 'h' and 'kh' are listed in Arabic one after the other) (In other circumstances the heth stays as heth. We also notice that in some cases Arabic retains the changing of letter pronunciation, which in Arabic is taught that that's how the word is pronounced, but Aramaic we have rules that govern these changes of pronunciations: as in the Aramaic word 'madhbha" which due to the rules changes the 'd' into a 'dh', but in Arabic there's no explanation as to the 'dh' of 'madhbah' )
---
lkhoon <- for you (Aramaic)
lkoom <- for you (Arabic)
(There's an Arabic pattern of writing the Aramaic 'kh' as 'k', and the Aramaic 'n' as 'm'. And in other cases the 'n' stays an 'n', the 'm' stays as 'm; and the 'k' stays 'k')
---
lahma <- Bread (Aramaic)
lahm <- Flesh (Arabic)
(We see a clear Christian influence on the Arabic language, because in Christianity we say that our Lord Transformed Bread into His Flesh)
---
shareera <- True (Aramaic)
shareer <- Evil (Arabic)
(We see here a Quranic influence, because in Aramaic we refer to Jesus (in the context of God) as 'shareera' (i.e. we say "bsh??m aba wabra wrooha dqoodsha had alaha shareera ameen" = "In the name of the Father, and Son, and the Holy Spirit One True God verily). And since the Quran considers that Jesus is not God, and that the people who profess it are sinners, thus the Arabic word 'shareer' became known as evil)

I could continue listing these patterns forever, but I think I've shown a solid pattern of Arabic coming from Aramaic.

poosh bashlomo habr,
keefa-moroon

bar_khela Wrote:Shlama Akhi Paul,


So you're saying that both Hebrew and Arabic were weened from the same mother, Aramaic. You're also saying that these sisters separated with Ishmael and Issac. Finally, you're saying the variation between the two languages is consequential to centuries of long distance. As a result, they developed their own characteristics. Right? I can accept this. But why do philologists compare Arabic and Hebrew to Akkadian if they descended from Aramaic?
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#24
bar_khela Wrote:Linguistically speaking, do you have a general knowledge of Arabic and Hebrew.

Shlama Akhi bar-Khela,

Both of my parents were born and raised in Beirut, Lebanon, where the official language is Arabic. My sisters were born and raised in Beirut before my parents emigrated here to the states, and then I and my brother were born in Chicago. They all read and speak Arabic fluently.

Unfortunately, they only taught us boys Aramaic. We learned English in school at age 5. ( When any of them wanted to talk in secret, they used Arabic and the two of us were lost. <!-- sSad --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/sad.gif" alt="Sad" title="Sad" /><!-- sSad --> )

I only know Hebrew in relation to its similiarities with Aramaic, and my studies of the OT. I do not speak either language, nor am I an expert in either one of them. (although I am more familiar with Arabic because it was sometimes spoken at home)
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
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#25
bar_khela Wrote:Shlama Akhi Paul,


So you're saying that both Hebrew and Arabic were weened from the same mother, Aramaic. You're also saying that these sisters separated with Ishmael and Issac. Finally, you're saying the variation between the two languages is consequential to centuries of long distance. As a result, they developed their own characteristics. Right? I can accept this. But why do philologists compare Arabic and Hebrew to Akkadian if they descended from Aramaic?

Shlama Akhi bar-Khela,

Philologists also compare the Aramaic NT to the Greek NT, which they presume is the ancestor to the Aramaic NT. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

Abraham knew Akkadian - about that there is no doubt. He couldn't have survived in Mesopotamia if he didn't. And like Aramaic has been influenced by Akkadian, both Hebrew and Arabic have been too. There are a lot of Akkadian loan-words in Aramaic, Hebrew and Arabic.

The native language of Babylonia and Assyria was Akkadian. Therefore, the language of the Babylonians and the Assyrians was Akkadian.

However, the Chaldeans were neither Babylonians nor Assyrians. They were invaders from Aram who spoke Aramaic. (c.f., Paul E. Dion. "Aramaean Tribes and Nations of First-Millennium Western Asia." Jack M. Sasson. Editor. Civilizations of the Ancient Near East. Peabody, Mass. Hendrickson. 1995, Vol. 2. p. 1282)

The three principle tribes were Bit-Dakkuri, Bit-Amukkani, and Bit-Yakin, and there were also two smaller ones, Bit-Sha'alli and Bit-Shilani. The Bit-Dakkuri and Bit-Amukkani tribes occupied the region along the Euphrates southwards from Babylon, and the Bit-Yakin tribe lived from around Ur to the marshes which stretched as far as the Persian Gulf. This is why the Bible describes Abraham as coming from "Ur of the Chaldees."

King Sennacherib of Assyria wrote:

Sennacherib Wrote:"The people of Chaldea, Aramaeans and Manneans ... who had not submitted to the yoke, I removed from hither, and made them carry the basket and mold bricks".

Sennacherib's Palace Without Rival at Nineveh (Uni. of Chicago Press, 1991)

More importantly, GOD says:

Deut 26:5 Wrote:"And you shall make response before the Lord your God, 'A wandering Aramean was my father; and he went down into Egypt and sojourned there, few in number; and there he became a nation great, mighty and populous."

The Chaldeans were not the only Aramean tribes in Mesopotamia - they were spread out all over. Genesis 25:20 speaks of Isaac's wife Rebekah being the daughter of an Aramean of Paddan-aram (in the Haran, "northern Assyria", area.) This is because Abraham wanted him to marry from his "own people." How is it that the Arameans were "his own people", Akhi, if Abraham wasn't an Aramean?

Arameans spoke Aramaic - the language named after them.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
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#26
[quote="abudar2000"]shlomo oh bar_khela,


-Researchers claim that it came from Yemen, and that it was spoken in the area of the Arabian Peninsula by the Arab tribes. And also the Arabic that was spoken by the Arab Tribes differs from that found in the Quran. What is refered to as classical Arabic, is the Arabic found in the Quran.

Partly true. There were various dialects of Arabic prevalent in the 7th century AD. The dialect of the Qu'ran, which is known as "classical Arabic" was the dialect of the Quraysh, the most respected tribe of Arabia at the time. This is the tribe that Muhammad descended from. After his death, Muslims had to preserve a standard Arabic language which corresponded perfectly with the Qu'ran. Thus, we have MSA today.

-Researchers also claim that Arabic is a slang version of Aramaic, which over time due to the isolation of the Arab tribes have diverted from Aramaic.

Based upon your proofs, I'd say that right off the bat. I wonder if Arabic was a slang of Aramaic or if it was a language which appeared by its own merit while heavily borrowing from its predecessor.

---
lahma <- Bread (Aramaic)
lahm <- Flesh (Arabic)
(We see a clear Christian influence on the Arabic language, because in Christianity we say that our Lord Transformed Bread into His Flesh)

But I'm not sure if this is mere concidence. In German, "gift" means "poison" while in English it means "a present." ---

shareera <- True (Aramaic)
shareer <- Evil (Arabic)
(We see here a Quranic influence, because in Aramaic we refer to Jesus (in the context of God) as 'shareera' (i.e. we say "bsh??m aba wabra wrooha dqoodsha had alaha shareera ameen" = "In the name of the Father, and Son, and the Holy Spirit One True God verily). And since the Quran considers that Jesus is not God, and that the people who profess it are sinners, thus the Arabic word 'shareer' became known as evil)

That's very interesting. But in the Qu'ran, is "shareer" used in reference to the Christian proclamation of the Trinity?

You've done exceedingly well, Keefa. I'm very impressed.[/b]
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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#27
shlomo habr bar_khela,

Thanks for the complement!

I like your dedication to research, I'm just like you I like research. :)

bar_khela Wrote:Based upon your proofs, I'd say that right off the bat. I wonder if Arabic was a slang of Aramaic or if it was a language which appeared by its own merit while heavily borrowing from its predecessor.

From what I know it descends from Aramaic.

bar_khela Wrote:---
lahma <- Bread (Aramaic)
lahm <- Flesh (Arabic)
(We see a clear Christian influence on the Arabic language, because in Christianity we say that our Lord Transformed Bread into His Flesh)

But I'm not sure if this is mere concidence. In German, "gift" means "poison" while in English it means "a present." ---

Since both Hebrew and Aramaic list "lahma" as bread, it would be odd that Arabic would differ. Espeically when we a significant historical event that most likely affected it, given that some of the Arabs were Christian before.

bar_khela Wrote:shareera <- True (Aramaic)
shareer <- Evil (Arabic)
(We see here a Quranic influence, because in Aramaic we refer to Jesus (in the context of God) as 'shareera' (i.e. we say "bsh??m aba wabra wrooha dqoodsha had alaha shareera ameen" = "In the name of the Father, and Son, and the Holy Spirit One True God verily). And since the Quran considers that Jesus is not God, and that the people who profess it are sinners, thus the Arabic word 'shareer' became known as evil)

That's very interesting. But in the Qu'ran, is "shareer" used in reference to the Christian proclamation of the Trinity?

They just call us "kafar" sinners. As for the word "shareer" that's just from common knowledge.

poosh bashlomo,
keefa-moroon
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#28
The Chaldeans were not the only Aramean tribes in Mesopotamia - they were spread out all over. Genesis 25:20 speaks of Isaac's wife Rebekah being the daughter of an Aramean of Paddan-aram (in the Haran, "northern Assyria", area.) This is because Abraham wanted him to marry from his "own people." How is it that the Arameans were "his own people", Akhi, if Abraham wasn't an Aramean?

Arameans spoke Aramaic - the language named after them.[/quote]

Very convincing, Akhi.

I've been reading the works of Rev. Alphonse Mingana today. In his treatise "Syriac Influence on the Style of the Qu'ran," he compares, as Akh Keefa, religious and common Syriac terminology to word usage in the Qu'ran. This is perplexing. Numerous historians say that the Bedouins were nomadic tribes who were fairly isolated, which is why Arabic was able to maintain its "proto-Semitic" features (supposing proto-Semitic exists) for so long. While the Nabateans clearly influenced with the Kufic script, I do not see how the particular dialect of Edessa infiltrated classical Arabic the way it did if the two peoples, Assyrians and Arabs, were isolated. What are your thoughts on this?
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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#29
Shlama Akhi bar-Khela,

bar-Khela Wrote:I do not see how the particular dialect of Edessa infiltrated classical Arabic the way it did if the two peoples, Assyrians and Arabs, were isolated. What are your thoughts on this?

Was not Muhammed tutored by a CoE monk in Mecca? His name was Waraqa ibn Nofal, who was translating the book of Matthew from Aramaic into Arabic at the time. Wasn't he also tutored in Basra by the Church of the East monk, Bahira, in Syria?

Was not Haret-Ibn-Caida, physician and friend of Muhammed, a Church of the Easterner?

Quote:The Nestorians (sic) were the most powerful non-Moslem community while the Caliphs reigned at Bagdad (750-1258) and had a higher tradition of civilization than their masters. They were used at court as physicians, scribes and secretaries, and thus gained great influence . . . The Arab scholarship which came to Spain and was a great factor in Medieval learning begins in great part with the Nestorians (sic) of Baghdad.

S. M. Swemer , A Moslem Seeker After God

That's how Classical Aramaic influenced Classical Arabic. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#30
Shlama Akhi Paul,


*Shaking finger saying "Ah aah aah!"

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBwaraqa.html">http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ ... araqa.html</a><!-- m -->

<!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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