The 2 Houses Of Israel

[Rob]

Interesting topic reguarding the 2 houses of Israel has been brought up before, but not in a topic where an appropiate place for dialogue.

I do reject this doctrine because it is not clearly spelled out in scripture. The majority of the NT's rhetoric surrounding this topic is on Gentiles not having the same standard for obedience. I am not saying that it will not change eschatologically; but by human effort I believe nothing should be done to discern whether or not Gentiles might actually be long lost Jews.

[drmlanc]

"I do reject this doctrine because it is not clearly spelled out in scripture"

Are you talking about the split of Israel into Northern and Southern kingdoms? Isn't that said very clearly in the Bible?

[Rob]

Are you talking about the split of Israel into Northern and Southern kingdoms? Isn't that said very clearly in the Bible?

Yes, the 2 house theology is based on that event; claiming that many, if not all Gentile believers are decendents of Ephraim thus rightful Jews upon acceptance of the Messiah, who will at some time return the 2 houses. Most of these 2 House people are Messianic Jews but some are Orthodox as well.

[Paul Younan]

Akhi Rob,

The ten tribes who were taken into captivity in Assyria never left Assyria, and they are still there to this day. In our villages, we had plenty of them who continued to know their identity and some even accepted Meshikha and joined the CoE.

When the Baathist party came to power in Iraq, most of them emigrated to Israel...particularly to suburbs of Tel Aviv like Kfar Shmoni. They still speak Aramaic, by the way.

They look just like all the other Semites of the area, Arabs, Assyrians, etc.

The theory that Europeans are Ephraim, etc. is all junk.

[drmlanc]

Interesting info Akh. Though one must ask themselves what happened to a country of more than a million people... There have been found Aramaic writing even in Britain and a town (and famous battle) called gbrah! Not evidence of anything, but still tres cool <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/happy.gif" alt="" title="Happy" /><!-- s -->

[drmlanc]

Akhi Rob, the theology you talk about here:

""Yes, the 2 house theology is based on that event; claiming that many, if not all Gentile believers are decendents of Ephraim thus rightful Jews upon acceptance of the Messiah, who will at some time return the 2 houses. Most of these 2 House people are Messianic Jews but some are Orthodox as well. ""

Is just silliness! The only rightful "Jews" are the ones of the southern kingdom, not northern. While some British and Scandy etc may be of Israelite descent, not even Yair Davidiy dares to claim that ALL of them are from Israel. That would completely ignore Europe's heavy Germanic influence, which is often linked with Assyria.

[drmlanc]

Go here: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.truth777.netfirms.com/Christianity.htm">http://www.truth777.netfirms.com/Christianity.htm</a><!-- m -->

and scroll down to the section "Bible Prophecy and Biblical History"

There's around 4 articles there on the origins of Britons, Germanics (die Faterland!!!) and the Ashkenazi "Jews".

[Paul Younan]

Interesting info Akh. Though one must ask themselves what happened to a country of more than a million people... There have been found Aramaic writing even in Britain and a town (and famous battle) called gbrah! Not evidence of anything, but still tres cool <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/happy.gif" alt="" title="Happy" /><!-- s -->

Akhi,

Only some tens of thousands were taken into captivity. It was Assyrian policy to wipe out rebellious parts of the empire (i.e., Samaria) and spare the artisans, scribes, etc. for use elsewhere in the empire.

Even Josephus (800 years later) said that they are still in Assyria. He recorded King Agrippa's (the "king" of the Roman province of Judea) speech to the Jews, in which the king himself stated while trying to convince the Jews not to rebel against Rome:

"What? Do you think your fellow-tribes in Adiabene are going to come to your assistance? Even if they would want to, the Persians would not allow it."

And then 500 years after Josephus, Jerome even said that the tribes were "Still beyond the Euphrates, in the land of their captivity...nor has their captivity ever been loosed."

As you should know, Adiabene is in the heart of Assyria (exactly where II Kings and Chronicles said they were taken to by the king of Assyria.)

By the time of Josephus, it had been 800 years since their captivity. By the time of Jerome, maybe close to 1,300 years? And both of them said that they are still in Assyria. (not Europe, not North America, not Japan nor the other ridiculous theories that have sprung up because everyone wants to be part of them!)

In a recent edition of Biblical Archaeological review that Akhan Dean sent me, there was an interesting article proving from archaeological records that the Israelites blended in with the native Assyrians, often intermarrying with them, taking on Assyrian names instead of their Hebrew names and even serving as priests to Ashur in the temples (the pagan Assyrian diety).

Remember, we're not talking about people who were worshipping the God of Abraham. That's why they were deported to begin with. They are not "Jews" in any sense of the word, except that some of them today practice the Jewish religion of their forefathers before they sinned. Others have converted to Christianity or Islam. We know plenty of them.

[drmlanc]

"because everyone wants to be part of them"

lol not me though. Why would anyone want to be part of a people who CONSTANTLY rejected God? I'd rather be me.

Good quotes Akhi, but none of them make any claim that ALL the Israelis were there. In fact, we see the "Cimmerians" and "Scythians" spreading across Europe like fire and the further you go back in time, the closer and closer they get to the Israelis in Assyria. It's like tracing the Ashkenazim of today, to Khazaria.

Plenty of prophecies fit with the British-Isarelis theory too, like Zebulon ruling the shore (Holland), Manasseh being a great nation (USA) and Ephraim being a great company of nations (UK). Surely these two subtribes could not have been considered such before the captivity!

Is it such a stretch to think that maybe some Israelis pushed further into Europe, and that some Assyrians pushed into Europe too? Or is it more plausible that all of both groups were killed? Especially given the prophecies that Assyria would rebuild the world? And Israel would receive so many blessings? Today's Israel is NOT Israel. In fact, it may not even be Judah, but Japeth (prophecies of Japeth in Shem's tents).

Assyrians have always been great builders. So are Germans, and they would be good to rebuild the world <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s -->

[Zechariah14]

Interesting topic reguarding the 2 houses of Israel has been brought up before, but not in a topic where an appropiate place for dialogue.

I do reject this doctrine because it is not clearly spelled out in scripture. The majority of the NT's rhetoric surrounding this topic is on Gentiles not having the same standard for obedience. I am not saying that it will not change eschatologically; but by human effort I believe nothing should be done to discern whether or not Gentiles might actually be long lost Jews.

Actually, check the Scriptures given by James in Acts 15 (quoting Amos) and by Peter in 1 Pet 2 (quoting Hosea) for their explanation of why the nations are coming to faith in Messiah. Then, go back and check out the context of those quotations. It is all about the northern kingdom of Israel, aka Joseph, aka Ephraim. The New Testament is applying Scriptures specifically talking about Israel to new believers from the nations coming to faith in Messiah.

Don't get confused. Two Houses of Israel is really about Two Houses. The northern house, Israel, and the southern house, Judah becoming one. It is not about people scattered in the nations being long lost Jews. Jews, southern kingdom, Judah. It is about many people coming to faith in Messiah being long lost Israelites. Yet, bloodlines are not important. Why not? Well, a key Scriptural basis for a two house understanding of Scripture is from Ezekiel 37. I commend you to read the whole thing. The valley of the dry bones is about the whole house of Israel being brought back to life. The two sticks, one the house of Judah and his companions and the other the house of Joseph and his companions, become one in YHWH's hand. Read the prophecy. Has it already been fulfilled, and if so, when?

This is part of the restoration of all things. The disciples asked Messiah when He would restore the kingdom to Israel. His answer was not a rebuke, but rather a command to go make disciples.

Ephraim was prophecied to become melo ha goyim (Gen 48: 19), fullness of the nations. Now read Romans 10: 25 - 26..."until the fullness of the gentiles have come in."


Zechariah14

[Yohanan26]

Shalom brethren!

If you guys don't mind, i would like to comment on this. I would like to present you with writings from the Talmud Bavli, tractate Yevamot 17a. And this is concerning what the Rabbis thought about the 10 tribes of Israel scattered among the nations.

Yevamot 17a

Thy son, implies that he who is descended from an Israelitish woman may be called thy son, but thy son who is descended from a heathen woman is not called thy son but her son (I.e., is regarded as a perfect heathen and his betrothal has no validity). But, surely, there were also daughters (Of the ten tribes who married heathens), and Rabina had said, ???From this it may be inferred that thy daughter's son born from [a union with] a heathen is called thy son???!??? There is a tradition that the women of that generation were sterilized.

Others read: When I mentioned the matter in the presence of Samuel he said to me, ???They did not move from there until they had declared them (The ten tribes.) to be perfect heathens/goyim; as it is said in the Scriptures, They have dealt treacherously against the Lord, for they have begotten strange children. (Hoshea 5:7)

They called the heathens Arameans, which is the same term Shaul used when referring to the Gentiles, he called them Arameans. He stated there is no difference between Jew or Aramean.

Also in tractate Gitin Mishnah 5 it says:

Any legal document which has a Samaritan as witness to it is invalid, save writs of divorce and writs of manumision of bondmen. It once happened that they brought a letter of divorce before Rabban Gamliel at Kefar Avthani, and its witnesses were Samaritans, and he declared it legal.

Ezekiel 23 defines very clearly who Samaria is and who Yerushalaim is.

Ezekiel 23:9 "Therefore I have delivered her (House of Israel) Into the hand of her lovers, Into the hand of the Assyrians, For whom she lusted.

Jews have always had resentment against Samaria (House of Israel), so there has always been division between Yosef and Yehudah. So based on tradition and scripture throughout the Tanakh and Brit Chadashah i believe the reunion of Judah and Yosef, which is the Good News of Mashiach.

So, these are my comments. I would love to hear what you guys have to say.

Yohanan

[gbausc]

Shlama Yohanan,

You wrote:

I believe the reunion of Judah and Yosef, which is the Good News of Mashiach.

Is that all there is to your gospel ?

Is that what Yeshua Meshika told his disciples to
proclaim to all creation ? Mark 16:15
Is that the gospel Sheliha Paul said was preached to every creature under the whole heaven ? Colossians 1:23

What relevance does such a gospel have to the people of China, India, Russia,USA, Sweden,Germany, South Africa, Australia, Iceland,
Jamaica, Egypt, Switzerland, Zimbabwe, Congo,Chile, Brazil,Italy,Spain,Mexico,Canada,Greenland,Lichtenstein, Finland,Poland,Czechoslavakia, France,
and hundreds more ?

Where do you read this "gospel" ?

Incredulously yours,

Dave Bauscher

[Yohanan26]

Shalom Dave,

Well first of all i am not here to convince anyone about anything. I share what i believe with others and this is why i ask for opinions. I will answer to what you have posted

Is that all there is to your gospel ?

First of all, i don't have a Gospel. I share what i see in scriptures, this is a forum for discussion. I am not imposing anything on anyone. So please be respectful on your answers, i take that of "your Gospel" very offensively. And if you don't like this discussion then keep out of it, but be respectful, act like a brother in Meshikha.

Is that what Yeshua Meshika told his disciples to
proclaim to all creation ? Mark 16:15
Is that the gospel Sheliha Paul said was preached to every creature under the whole heaven ? Colossians 1:23

I never said he didn't. Yes the Gospel is to be proclaimed to all creation.

What relevance does such a gospel have to the people of China, India, Russia,USA, Sweden,Germany, South Africa, Australia, Iceland,
Jamaica, Egypt, Switzerland, Zimbabwe, Congo,Chile, Brazil,Italy,Spain,Mexico,Canada,Greenland,Lichtenstein, Finland,Poland,Czechoslavakia, France,
and hundreds more ?

All of these which you have named sound like Nations. Perhaps you haven't read the following verse:

Ezekiel 37:21 "Then say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, (China, India, Russia,USA, Sweden,Germany, South Africa, Australia, Iceland,
Jamaica, Egypt, Switzerland, Zimbabwe, Congo,Chile, Brazil,Italy,Spain,Mexico,Canada,Greenland,Lichtenstein, Finland,Poland,Czechoslavakia, France) wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;

Unless you think that the children of Israel are limited to only being from the middle east and not also from:

China, India, Russia,USA, Sweden,Germany, South Africa, Australia, Iceland,
Jamaica, Egypt, Switzerland, Zimbabwe, Congo,Chile, Brazil,Italy,Spain,Mexico,Canada,Greenland,Lichtenstein, Finland,Poland,Czechoslavakia, France.

Where do i read the Gospel? I start with Bereshit and on.

Yours in Meshikha

Yohanan

[gbausc]

Shlama John,

You wrote:

Well first of all i am not here to convince anyone about anything. I share what i believe with others and this is why i ask for opinions.

Please, be honest. You are not simply gathering opinions, otherwise you would not be offended when someone disagrees with you.

By "your gospel", I mean, of course, your understanding of it.
Your statement of the gospel of Meshikha is not from the words of Meshikha and is an outrageous statement. I respect you and your right to believe whatever you choose, and the right to express it. That does not mean I must respect your beliefs.
Does that make sense ?

If someone comes on this forum and says he believes the gospel is for Germans only,
I respect him as a human being and his right to believe what he will and the right to express it. I would not respect his belief.

It sounds like you believe something very similar to that. Tell me if I am wrong.
Do you believe the gospel is for Jews only ?

You wrote:
Quote:

I believe the reunion of Judah and Yosef, which is the Good News of Mashiach.

Is that all there is to it ?

Respectfully yours,

Dave

[Zechariah14]

Your statement of the gospel of Meshikha is not from the words of Meshikha and is an outrageous statement.

Hi Dave,

The restoration of the Two Houses of Yisrael is a great unfulfilled prophecy of the Bible. When the disciples asked about this in Acts 1:6, Messiah didn't rebuke them as most Christian commentators suppose. Rather, He told them that they weren't to know things that were in the Father's timing.....it was there job to be witnesses to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and to the remotest parts of the earth.

This is key to understanding the reason that the apostles attributed to why those from the nations were turning to faith in Messiah. According to the words of Ya'akov at the Jerusalem council, the reason for people from the nations coming to faith in Messiah can be found in Amos 9, which he quoted. Amos 9 is about both houses of Yisrael, but in particular a central them of Amos is the northern house of Yisrael. In the context that Ya'akov quoted, the northern house of Yisrael will be scattered to the nations, but not a kernel will fall to the ground.

The restoration of the Two Houses is part of the restoration of all things (Acts 3: 21).

Please note lest anyone take offense, salvation has always been by faith, and still today has nothing to do with nationality.

your brother in Messiah,
Wayne