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What about a sub-section for the non-canical works?
#1
Not the burden you Paul, but you was talking about how Revelation and other works were still considered of worthy reading by the COE, would you consider a section that contains these works? Maybe label the section "works of other importance" or something.

That way your ability in the language could still be used and these works would be available to others who would like to persue their study.

Also, are you able to ready Palestinian aramaic/syriac? I have something for you if you are able to read it.
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#2
Shlama Dave,

You mean make interlinears of the extra-Peshitta 5 books? I can do that if there is consensus on it, I have no problem with that. I'll put some verbage on them stating that they aren't part of the Peshitta canon, etc.

Sure - I can read any Aramaic. Send it.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
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#3
Ok Paul. Dont know if others would want the 5 books and such, but the idea struck me earlier.

What I have is this:

THE PALESTINIAN SYRIAC LECTIONARY OF THE GOSPELS RE-EDITED FROM TWO SINIAI MSS. AND FROM P. DE LAGARDE'S EDITION OF THE "EVANGELIARIUM HIEROSOLYMITANU

LEWIS, AGNES
GIBSON, MARGARET

Its a facimile reprint, brand new. Since I'm unable to read it (/cry), I thought that maybe you would find it as a resource for some of your work.

PM me your address if you wish to look it over, I'll send it to you. It's free to you Paul, I'm unable to utilize it untranslated.
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#4
I second, Paul. Though we may not currently have the Aramaic originals of the 5, if they even exist, they still make things more sensical. Just look at the Alpha and the O <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
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#5
Shlama Akhay,

I was looking at an online book at Christian Classics Ethereal Library (CCEL)-Commentary on Revelation by E. W. Bullinger. I thought the paragraphs entitled 'The Five-Fold Division of the Bible' and 'The Hebrew Character of the Book' might be of great interest to the forum.
If I'm reading this right, E. W. Bullinger tells of a book by Moses Stuart (Commentary on the Apocalypse) where the Hebrew nature of the book is exhaustively treated (he devotes over 20 pages to the subject- pp. 190-210)

Here's a quote from E. W. Bullinger that I like really well.

Quote:Now, when we turn to the Apocalypse, what do we find? The result which to our mind is overwhelming. No less than 285 references to the Old Testament. More than three times as many as Matthew, and nearly three times as many as the Epistle to the Hebrews.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.ccel.org/b/bullinger/apocalypse/cache/apocalypse.html3">http://www.ccel.org/b/bullinger/apocaly ... ypse.html3</a><!-- m -->

Shlama w'Burkate, Larry Kelsey
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#6
Shlama Akhay,

If any translation work is done on Revelation or any of the other books not in the original canon, we need to be 'painfully honest' for lack of a better way to put it.
Akhan Paul has already alluded to this in his post and John Wesley Etheridge gives us a very good example of where the Syriac translators messed up.

Quote:And I beheld, and heard an eagle,9 flying in the midst, having a tail of blood,1 saying with a great voice, Woe, woe, to those who dwell upon earth, from the voice of the rest of the trumpets of the three angels which are about to sound !

1 Here the Syrian translator was at fault. His Greek copy, without separating the words, read, " in the midst of heaven ;" which he appears to have decomposed thus: (" the midst ") + (" a tail ") + (" blood,") so as to produce the singular expression given above.

On the other hand, you have 'menorahs' instead of 'candlesticks', 'ephod' instead of 'clothed to the foot', 'shofar' instead of 'trumpet' just to mention a few of the nicer aspects of a Syriac Revelation even though it is a translation from Greek!!

The "no less than 285 O. T. references" that E. W. Bullinger refers to makes me lean toward a lost Aramaic or Hebrew original. Either that or some Greek-speaking Jew had Rukha d'Qodsha move upon him very mightily. But if this is the case, why didn't he transliterate 'menorahs', etc., into Greek characters? Hmmm...somethin' fishy goin' on here! <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

Shlama w'Burkate, Larry Kelsey
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#7
I dont know how others would feel about the section for this. The honesty is there already amongst you guys in how you do the work. I think the problem will be choosing the texts to put on the sight. Such as, do you use Peshitto text of Revelation of do you use the Crawford?

I would say the later but others may want different. Ultimately, these works could be offered to the public for people to see for once and do their own comparisons. Would draw more attention to the work at hand by Paul and you guys, and would spark an interest to others.
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#8
This is why it is said that the best case for an aramaic original of the Revelation is from the Greek...
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#9
Doesn't the Crawford correct a lot of mistakes normally found?
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#10
Larry Kelsey Wrote:The "no less than 285 O. T. references" that E. W. Bullinger refers to makes me lean toward a lost Aramaic or Hebrew original. Either that or some Greek-speaking Jew had Rukha d'Qodsha move upon him very mightily.

Having 285 O.T. references isn't any kind of proof of an Aramaic or Hebrew original. Although, it may be proof that the theology (compare with Paul's especially) of Revelation is different (more dependant on the OT) than that of the Peshitta.

Shlama, Craig
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#11
My brethren,

I would be in favor of posting the Catholic Epistles and Revelation from The Peshitto and The Crawford Manuscript.
These books are not Greek originals.
I have plenty of linguistic evidence ,aside from codes ,that Gwynn's edition of The Apocalypse is not a translation of Greek, but that the Byzantine and Critical text of that book is a translation of that Aramaic text .

I will be posting evidence of this sort from time to time from the NT, comparing OT models of translations and originals, using The LXX and Hebrew OT , as well as The Latin Vulgate. There is abundant evidence that The Peshitta-Peshitto texts compare to The Greek NT as the Hebrew OT compares to The LXX and Latin Vulgate. I have done dozens of exhaustive parallel word search-comparisons , all of which are consistent with The Hebrew & LXX model, to demonstrate this.
The Greek primacy movement is about to be put to rest.

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0sn0d hrbd htyt0m 0wht 0nkh 0br9ml 0md9 0zxtmw 0xndm Nm qpn 0qrbd ryg 0nky0 [/font]Matthew 24:27
Have you considered what our Lord may have meant by His return, here? I seriously doubt most of us have anticipated how He returns. He will take most by surprise, as a thief in the night, at a time and in a way we would not expect!

Was not the reformation an advent appearance of the living Christ ? Did not a publication of His word send lightning and fire works across the globe?
"My word is a fire..., and a hammer.."

The Peshitta-Peshitto will be recognized as the original New Testament and The perfectly preserved and very words of God. It will be lightning in God's hand to enlighten the East and the West.

Thus saith,


Dave B. (Hope its true!)
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#12
That is very exciting Dave!
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#13
gbausc Wrote:Was not the reformation an advent appearance of the living Christ ?


No. Reformation was nothing but a reformation of Roman Catholicism that eastern Christianity did not need and which often introduced new errors to offset the abuses it corrected. The full fruits of the Reformation can be seen in the degeneration of it into tens of thousands of rival sects that become ever more impotent with each splintering. Without a real apostolic tradition such as the CoE, the Eastern Orthodox, etc. possess, Protestantism will continue to devolve into post Christian cults from Mormonism to the Jehovah's Witnesses to Christian Science to the Branch Davidians to the Moonies to the female and homosexual ordainers like the Episcopalians.

Quote:Did not a publication of His word send lightning and fire works across the globe?
"My word is a fire..., and a hammer.."

Only in those parts where it the Clergy had made an effort to keep the Laity from reading it which was a problem fairly unique to Roman Catholicism.

Quote:The Peshitta-Peshitto will be recognized as the original New Testament and The perfectly preserved and very words of God.

The Peshitto is not perfectly preserved and to believe that even IF the Western Five had been composed in Aramaic that the Syrian/c Orthodox Church would be content to only edit the 22 books of the Peshitta and leave the Western Five alone seems to me wishful thinking.

Shlama, Craig
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#14
""Was not the reformation an advent appearance of the living Christ ?""

No. It just meant that there were more religions that were not true Christianity. And arguably the catalyst for all that, Luther, was a very nasty fellow indeed, helping the government to seek out and kill Christians. So we have bad fruit, and a bad seed.
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#15
Martin Luther:

"In the Revelation of John much is wanting to let me deem it either prophetic or apostolical" (Preface to N.T., 1524)

Contrary to what many believe the Reformation leaders were not diehard adherents of a 27 book canon. Ironically, it was only as a reaction to statements like the above that the Council of Trent finally set in stone the exact Roman Catholic position on the composition and level of authority of the canon:

"Henceforth the books of the OT [45] and the NT [27], protocanonical and deuterocanonical alike, in their entirety and with all their parts, comprise the canon and are held to be of equal authority."

Protestants gradually accepted this definition of the NT, even though it had come about as an (over) reaction to their own founders, because with a battecry like <i>Sola Scriptura</i> it was simply easier to pretend that the NT had always been 27 books of equally universal acceptance and pedigree.

Shlama, Craig
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