Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
What about a sub-section for the non-canical works?

I never said the Reformation still holds its original force. I also never said Martin Luther was a nice guy. For that matter, Peter was not a nice guy; he killed a man and his wife during a church service (by God's Spirit) !Shelicha Paul blinded a man for opposing him! Imagine the headlines about such revivals if they were to occur today!

Martin Luther evangelized Germany and published the Bible in the language of the people for the first time in their history. He also preached the gospel fearlessly in opposition to the Pope and nailed his 95 challenges to the church door at Wittenburg. Others did likewise in England, France, Switzerland , Italy and Sweden, until all Europe had
Bibles and the liberty to worship according to conscience.
Of course there were abuses. There were abuses in the first century church- read I & 2 Corinthians.

The Reformation gave us the Bible and the concept of the priesthood of the believer; The Bible and the liberty to worship as we choose; the Bible and the ability to read it and argue publicly about it; The Bible and the freedom to preach it; The Bible and the liberty to join one of a thousand churches or to worship in his home.
As far as a bad seed, we could argue that Pentecost was a bad seed on the same basis. The church was born at Pentecost and quickly degenerated into hundereds of sects
and a worldy bunch of lukewarm and careless "Christians".
Does that mean Pentecost was a bad seed?

If there had never been a reformation, we would still be living in the Dark Ages. We would have no Bible versions about which to disagree and no education to read one.

As far as The Church of The East and the Eastern Orthodox Church are concerned, if they had been obeying the Great commission, perhaps there would have not been "The Dark Ages". Is Apostolic succession a tradition of disobedience to God? Why hasn't the world heard of a Church of The East? I hadn't until two years ago.
I don't believe that church is any less guilty than any other church or in any less need of reformation.

If you guys can't see God's hand in the reformation, you need to open your eyes, or you will be doomed to miss seeing Him when He appears again.

At the judgment of the nations, The cry will be heard from both goats and sheep , "Lord, when did we ever see you..."? Matthew 25

12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]00yg$ 0dh$ Mdq 0tb+ 0tydwt tydw0w tyrqt0 Nwhld Ml9ld 0yx Krd0w 0twnmyhd 0b+ 0nwg0b stkt0w [/font]12

13 ?? I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0tryps 0twdh$ $w+lyp-$wy+np Mdq dho0d wh 0xysm 9wsyw lk 0xmd wh 0hl0 Mdq Kl 0n0 dhom [/font]13

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0xysm 9wsy Nrmd hnylgl 0md9 0mwm 0ldw 0slw+ 0ld 0ndqwp yhwyr+td [/font]14

15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0twrmd 0rmw 0klmd 0klm yhwdwxlb 0ntlyxw 0krbm 0hl0 yhwywxn hnbzb dyt9d wh [/font]15

The reformers risked their lives for Christ, some lost their lives in the cause. They gave us a great legacy. I don't need to agree with everything they said or did to see God's hand raising them up. They were men. We have a sad dearth of men today. Most of us are whiners and complainers. These men did something and they changed the world for the better. If you can improve on what they did, then do it; don't criticize great men.
By the way, name for me some men who did it right after 1400. If the Reformation was of the devil, where has God been for 2,000 years ?
Has He been confined to Persia for 20 centuries; and even there , within the walls of The Church of The East?(Oh , I forgot The Eastern Orthodox).

We should have understanding of the times and understanding of God's ways and works. I am having a hard time seeing understanding of those things in you guys, Chris and Craig.

15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0twrmd 0rmw 0klmd 0klm yhwdwxlb 0ntlyxw 0krbm 0hl0 yhwywxn hnbzb dyt9d wh [/font]15

Did you know that the Lord appears more than twice?
Paul says here there are "times" yet to come.
I pray you will see those times and thus see The LORD Himself when He comes.

2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]hnylgl wbx0d Nyly0l P0 0l0 yl dwxlb Nyd 0l 0n0k 0nyd wywhd wh 0mwyb yrm yl yhwy9rpnd 0twn0kd 0lylk yl ry+n 0sh Nmw[/font] 2Ti 4:8
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]hl Nyk$md Nyly0d Nwhyyxl 0zxtm Nyh+x 0ld Nynbz Nyd Nytrtd 00yg$d 0hjx xbd hmwnqbw brqt0 Nbz 0adx 0xysm P0 0nkh[/font] Heb 9:28

Grace be with you,

Dave B
gbausc Wrote:As far as The Church of The East and the Eastern Orthodox Church are concerned, if they had been obeying the Great commission, perhaps there would have not been "The Dark Ages". Is Apostolic succession a tradition of disobedience to God? Why hasn't the world heard of a Church of The East? I hadn't until two years ago.

Shlama Akhi Dave,

Actually, the Church of the East in the 11th century was the largest church on the earth, far surpassing both the Roman and Greek churches combined.

During this time, the Church of the East was spread from Cyprus to Japan. It had metropolitan bishoprics in Cyprus, Israel, Syria, Assyria, Babylonia, Persia, Georgia, India, Russia, Turkestan, Korea, China, Philippines, Java, Socotra, Mongolia, name it, the entire Asian continent.

The reason you had previously never heard of the Church of the East is because during the 14th century, Tamerlane (a fanatical Muslim Turk) wiped out 99% of the Church in Asia. After the arrival of the Turks, the Church of the East was a mere shadow of its former status as the largest Christian congregation on the face of the earth. This is because hundreds of millions of people were slaughtered or forcibly converted to Islam.

It may be hard to imagine, but for the first 12 centuries of the Christian faith, there were more believers to the east of the river Euphrates than to the west of it. And to the east they were Aramaic-based. Yes, Koreans and Mongolians and Japanese were saved and they prayed in Aramaic, read scriptures in Aramaic.

The Church of the East is not an ethnic church that is limited to Assyrians or Persians or Indians. It is and always was a "universal" church, comprising almost every nation to the "East" of Antioch. And, as I said earlier - it was larger than the Latin and Greek churches combined. So it is not that God was locked away in Persia during the Dark Ages of Europe. In fact, the Holy Spirit was making converts throughout all of Asia.

As for the Church of the East obeying the Great Commission or not obeying it, you may not realize that Western historians call the Church of the East "the Greatest Missionary Church that has ever existed." This is because it carried the Gospel across the vast continent of Asia, by foot, for 1300 years!

It is only in the last 700 or so years that Western Christianity has surpassed eastern in numbers. But again, this is because the Church of the East was nearly wiped out by Tamerlane. The only remnants to surivive this slaughter were some pockets in India and Assyria. Everywhere else in Asia the church was martyred.

If you look at the history of Christianity with only one eye open (one towards Europe), you would be doing yourself a great disservice. I highly recommend these resources to broaden your knowledge in this area:

"By Foot to China" -

"History of the Church of the East" -

"The Monks of Kublai Khan" -

For the best treatment of the topic to date, here is a great book from Barnes and Noble by Samuel Hugh Moffett: (VERY highly recommended) <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
Actually Paul it is EASY to imagine, after all, Christianitity did start in the East.

Dave I don't wanna argue, I want more to figure out these contradictions I have in the Greek (for a Peshitta primacy article) but this struck me:

""For that matter, Peter was not a nice guy; he killed a man and his wife during a church service (by God's Spirit) !""

Can you refer me to the verse? Sounds interesting!
Shlama akhi Paul,

Thank you for the history lesson on The Church Of The East.
I have downloaded the three articles you mentioned. I had no idea of the size and reach of that church and I apologize for my ignorant comments concerning it. I will read as much as I can about it.
Is the Western ignorance and lack of appreciation concerning the Church of The East linked to what I detect as a lack of appreciation and perhaps opposition to the Great Reformation in Europe ,on the part of some forum members ?
Does one bad turn deserve another ? Surely you are aware that many tens of millions of Protestants were slain during the Inquisitions and many imprisoned? The Reformers did give the Bible to the people and an example of fearless faith in proclaiming God's word openly and educating the people to read and write, establishing schools and universities, etc.. Is that all nonsense ?

We have all benefitted from and enjoy the fruits of that refomation and yet I hear some of you despising it and the men who led it. Is this some sort of cultural war we're engaged in ? I would hope we're fighting against the common foe of mankind , Satan, and not against any group of people or each other.
If you gentlemen cannot acknowledge that the Reformation was God's work, I cannot but conclude that you blaspheme The Holy Spirit as did the Pharisees who condemned Jesus' miracles as the work of Satan.
Ignorance is one thing and blasphemy of The Spirit of God is another. I hope there is none of the latter in your hearts. There is no cure for it that I know of.

I want to be very careful to honor Christ in all of His people by acknowledging Him and His works in His body ,the Church ,and in each of those who follow Him. If I despise one of them, I despise Him. That reflects on who I am, not on Him and His saints.

I don't think I know Martin Luher well enough to criticize him, nor do you. I know enough to say that he did great things for Germany and risked his life for the gospel and suffered for it. I know he opposed The Roman Catholic practices of indulgences and Papal infallibilty, salvation by works and absolution of sins by confession to a priest, as well as many other evils. He preached salvation is by God's grace alone and cannot be purchased with money or with works.
He translated the Bible from Hebrew and Greek into German and did a masterful job of it. The German people had the Bible for the first time in history.
I cannot condemn a man like that. I am not big enough-(perhaps I should say small enough). Are you ?

I certainly cannot condemn a whole troop of reformers who did like works and changed the course of history for the better by the finger of God; can you ?

Grace and peace,

Dave B
Shlama Akhi Dave,

The Reformation had many benefits to many people in Europe. All I ask is that you keep in mind that we are talking about a small part of the Church at that time.

There was an entire continent in which there were no Dark Ages, in which the Roman Catholic Church was practically non-existent, where no indulgences were sold - and where there was no such concept as Papal Infallibility (or a "Pope" for that matter.) In Asia no "Reformation" was needed, nor has one ever happened.

In fact, when Europe was in the "Dark Ages" - the Middle East and the rest of Asia were at the height of civilization and all sorts of advancements. Today, it's reversed again.

I think part of the reason why people have never heard of the Aramaic NT is because this community was nearly wiped out, and the only stronghold of Christianity left standing was in Europe. History only concentrates on that part of the Church Universal.

But if we lived 700 years ago, actually any time during the first 1300 years, it would have been a completely different picture - one in which the largest Church in the world was Aramaic-based, etc.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
Hi Dave, could you give me the ref about Peter killing that man in Chruch.


Rev Dave is talking about Acts 5:1 - 5:5.

Dave has it right; Its Acts 5:1-11.

[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Nkrwb[/font]

Dave B
Thanks "two Daves" it should be an interesting read <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
Ahki Larry,

Gwynn???s critical edition of the Catholic Epistles is nothing like the Harclaen version in Revelation. I count fifteen differences between them in just one verse- (Rev. 7:9), which I picked at random to study.
This edition, used in The Peshitto version of the 1979 UBS Syriac Bible, does not have the strange reading of Rev. 8:13, which you noted. I note also that the Harclean text uses [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]swnrt [/font] seven times in chapter seven whereas The Peshitto has [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0ysrwk[/font] in those places.

Have you ever noticed Rev. 9:11 in these two versions ?-

11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Byzantine Greek ecousai basilea ep autwn aggelon thv abussou onoma autw ebraisti abbadwn en de th ellhnikh onoma ecei apolluwn

Peshitto Aramaic [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0r$ ty0 hl 0m$ ty0mr0w wdb9 ty0rb9 hm$d 0mwhtd hk0lm 0klm Nwhyl9 ty0w[/font]

The Harclean agrees with the Greek, of course, whereas the Peshitto has, ???whose Hebrew name is ???Abado??? , and his Aramaic name is ???Sra???. The interpretation of this is debatable but the textual difference unquestionable. There is no address to a Greek audience in the Peshitto text whereas the Harclean and Greek address Hebrew and Greek as significant languages to the hearers. Gwynn???s mss. seem to be independent of the Greek altogether and address a Semitic audience , whether Hebrew and Aramaens or simply Aramaic speaking Jews of two dialects.

No one verse is going to establish which text is an original and which a translation; an overall comparison may very well do so. There are over a thousand differences (1500 , assuming conservatively 10 variants per verse) in Revelation alone.

I have hundreds of data covering ???The Five???, which I will post , that support the hypothesis that The Greek versions (Byzantine and Critical editions) are translations of the Aramaic text of The Peshitto.
I will be building the data base for this and showing more as I do.

[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0xy$mb Nwklyd[/font]

Dave B
I'm hoping the idea of the subsection will be received well. I see that it will spark some healthy debate and good ideas amongst you linguists, but above all, hopefully it will shed light upon a true rendering of the word throughout those 5 books.

For me, to have this in a "correct" literal english translation means more than you know, so many scholars have flipped the wording in these books around which ever way they felt like it seems.

Maybe, just maybe, Paul would allow one of ya's to send him a file with your translation of a chapter (in whatever font he would use) and post it for critiques by the masses?!?!?!

Never know <!-- s:bigups: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/bigups.gif" alt=":bigups:" title="Big Ups" /><!-- s:bigups: -->

Forum Jump:

Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)