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Mar Aphrahat, OS Mk 10:20, and the Diatessaron
#4
yuku Wrote:I see, Paul... So what you're saying is that Aphrahat did have his own trusty copy of the Peshitta by his side when he was writing his Demonstrations, he just didn't feel like opening it up. Instead, he cites this whole long Parable of the Rich Man from memory, but somehow manages to get the whole sequence of 7 words, letter for letter, the same as in the OS Mark, which, of course, could never have existed in Persia. Well, OK...

Akhi Yuri, we have Mshamshane (deacons) alive today who can recite you the entire Gospel from memory, and top it off with the Psalms, too.

Didn't you ever hear of Muslims memorizing the entire Koran verbatim? Where did you think they got that tradition from?

Akhi, please - Mar Aphrahat, whether or not he had a copy of the Peshitta next to him - could probably recite it to you word for word and not even break a sweat, if he wanted to.

The fact that he didn't recite it word-for-word, and just paraphrased it - creates a rich opportunity for people who like to theorize something to death.

Of course a bunch of paraphrasing and harmonizing looks like a quote from the non-existing Diatesseron to you! How could you possibly prove it, and at the same time how could you possibly be proven wrong?

You make an argument from silence (the Diatesseron is silent because it doesn't exist) - and, WALLA! You have a theory that nobody in their right mind can contest - let alone have the will and energy to contest!

yuku Wrote:I don't think anyone is actually denying that Aphrahat paraphrased a lot. Of course he paraphrased a lot, as is evident from taking even one brief look at his gospel citations. But when he gets the whole long sequence of 7 words the same as in the OS Mark, one might wonder if there's something more going on there other than paraphrasing.

So, what you're saying in a nutshell is agreeing with what I said all along - you agree that he paraphrased "a lot."

But then, you find a sequence of seven words (buried in a sequence of more words) that happen to match something that's not even closely related to the Diatesseron (in this case, a harmonization between OS© and OS(s)) and then you say "Aha! See, he was quoting here! - but not over there! I think!"

C'MON, Akhi.

You haven't even made up your mind what version you want to place in Aphrahat's hands - whether that version is Old Scratch or the Diatesseron. At least pick one and be consistent.

I've been consistent all along - Mar Aphrahat never quoted anything directly. He didn't have the scriptures open before him when he was writing his Demonstrations. Maybe he didn't own a copy of the scriptures at all. He sure as hell didn't have the internet to easily search for what verses he wanted to directly quote.

He was paraphrasing, Akhi. Stop searching for something that is not there.

yuku Wrote:As I already said, we don't have a copy of the "original Diatessaron". In fact, one might even wonder if such a thing ever existed. So all arguments in this area would have to be based on probabilities rather than certainties. If his citations look harmonised, then it might just be that it was a gospel harmony that he quoted from.

THERE! Now you are being very honest when you say that maybe it was a gospel harmony that he quoted from.

It's just as probable that he was using no version at all, no harmony at all. It's just as probable that he was paraphrasing from memory.

At least you've now opened up to the idea.

yuku Wrote:And what about all the other parallels in this same pericope between Aphrahat and the Old Syriac Sinaiticus? Don't you see them yourself?

This whole citation from Aphrahat seems harmonised between Mk and Mt.

Shlama,

Yuri.

Of course this whole citation seems harmonized. And "harmonization" and "paraphrasing" go hand-in-hand!

I told you that from the get-go. It's you who claimed that there were direct quotes from Mar Aphrahat from the Diatesseron - you even gave "scholarly" references to that effect - and you said that the "scholarly consensus" was that he used the Diatesseron (an impossiblity to prove since we don't have a copy of it to compare and see for ourselves.)

And now, with this example - you come out and say that he's quoting Old Scratch.

Again - which one is it, Akhi? Are we to believe the "scholarly consensus" about Mar Aphrahat quoting the Diatesseron - or are we to believe you about Mar Aphrahat quoting Old Scratch? You guys need to get together and make up your minds about which version he used.

I'm still waiting for an example from either the Diatesseron (which is impossible to prove) or from Old Scratch. This 7-word sequence you found just doesn't cut it in my opinion. He was paraphrasing - that is so evident that you even agree and call it a "harmonization" - the only problem with that is that even the "harmonization" between Mattai and Markus doesn't match the Old Scratch.

You're not being very convincing at all. At least the other scholars with their "scholarly consensus" can hide behind a version that doesn't even exist anymore. Thereby rendering themselves above criticism and impossible to prove wrong (or right.)

You, on the other hand have attributed these readings to Old Scratch - except when they disagree with your theory. Remember, we have Old Scratch and I can demonstrate that he didn't use it on at least as many examples (if not more) than you can show otherwise.

The only plausible theory is that he was paraphrasing - freely "targumming", and that theory matches ALL the evidence.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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Messages In This Thread
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 09-29-2003, 08:34 PM
[No subject] - by yuku - 10-02-2003, 04:14 PM
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 10-02-2003, 04:39 PM
[No subject] - by Craig - 10-02-2003, 09:09 PM
[No subject] - by The Thadman - 10-02-2003, 09:20 PM
[No subject] - by Craig - 10-02-2003, 09:34 PM
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 10-02-2003, 09:45 PM
[No subject] - by yuku - 10-04-2003, 05:10 PM
[No subject] - by Paul Younan - 10-04-2003, 09:43 PM

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