Romans 3:15 (WHOA! Is this weird!)

[The Thadman]

I just read, to my astonishment, in Romans 3:15:

15 ???????Their feet are swift to shed blood.

In the greek, the word according to Strongs is:

4228 pous pooce a primary word; a "foot" (figuratively or literally):--foot(-stool). <!-- s:nervous: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/nervous.gif" alt=":nervous:" title="Nervous" /><!-- s:nervous: -->

<!-- s:dontgetit: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/dontgetit.gif" alt=":dontgetit:" title="Dont Get It" /><!-- s:dontgetit: --> Craziness.... A foot or a freakin' FOOT STOOL? What is Paul envisioning? Using CHAIRS AS WEAPONS?!~ <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/sad.gif" alt="" title="Sad" /><!-- s -->

Funny, though, that in the Peshitta, the word is "reghlaihoon" which comes from the base word, "reghlo'". GUESS what I found in the CAL:

rgl N rgl)
1 passim foot <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/huh.gif" alt="" title="Huh" /><!-- s -->
2 Syr base, bottom
3 Syr foot (measure)
4 JLAGal,JBA pilgrimage festival
5 JLAGal w. %(l, b_% because of
4 Syr plant name
5 JBA festival season
LS2 712
pl: r:egle)
LS2 v: reglA)
abs. voc: rgel

rgl#2 N rgl)
1 Syr foot-soldier <!-- s:onfire: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/onfire.gif" alt=":onfire:" title="On Fire" /><!-- s:onfire: --> <!-- s:bigups: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/bigups.gif" alt=":bigups:" title="Big Ups" /><!-- s:bigups: -->
LS2 712
LS2 v: rag.AlA)
R rgl N

rgl V
011 Syr ??
021 JLAGal to overturn
041 Syr to get off a horse
LS2 712
R rgl N ?


Their FOOTSOLDIERS not FOOTSTOOLS or FEET! :-)

-Steve-o

[Paul Younan]

Oh my God, Steve - this is utterly incredible! <!-- s:bomb: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/bomb.gif" alt=":bomb:" title="The Bomb" /><!-- s:bomb: -->

And in Romans! <!-- s:onfire: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/onfire.gif" alt=":onfire:" title="On Fire" /><!-- s:onfire: -->

[drmlanc]

Thanks guys, I didn't realise the full significance until Paul said "and in Romans"!!!

This goes straight into BSSWA1

btw Steveo, I am using a lot of your stuff for this new compilation, is your real name as you want to be acknowledged "Steve Caruso"?

[Larry Kelsey]

Shlama Akhay,

I was awed by that 'footsoldiers' entry as well, but couldn't Paul be quoting Proverbs 1:15,16?

15-"My son, do not walk in the way with them; but refrain your foot from their path;
16-For their feet run to evil, they make haste to shed blood." (Lamsa)

Sorry...don't mean to be a party-pooper! <!-- s:lookround: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/lookround.gif" alt=":lookround:" title="Look Round" /><!-- s:lookround: -->

Shlama w'Burkate, Larry Kelsey

[Guest]

Shlama Akhay,

I was awed by that 'footsoldiers' entry as well, but couldn't Paul be quoting Proverbs 1:15,16?

15-"My son, do not walk in the way with them; but refrain your foot from their path;
16-For their feet run to evil, they make haste to shed blood." (Lamsa)

Sorry...don't mean to be a party-pooper! <!-- s:lookround: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/lookround.gif" alt=":lookround:" title="Look Round" /><!-- s:lookround: -->

Shlama w'Burkate, Larry Kelsey

It's alright. It's not such a big find afterall; he is quoting the Tanakh.

I just realized that the Greek of Paul is quoting the LXX word-for-word, so this error in the Greek texts does not stem from from the Aramaic, but the original mistranslation of the Septuagint.

It's rather interesting to see how the Aramaic clarifies this, though without breaking a sweat. :-)

drmlanc: Don't bother to post this in the BSSWA, it'll never hold up under scrutiny. :-)

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

[Larry Kelsey]

Shlama Akhay,

If this was a paraphrased Old Testament quote and this was totally unintentional by Paul, then we have one of the most ironic coincidences in the whole Bible here!
Roman footsoldiers were swift to shed innocent blood when the order went out to kill all those two years old and under. The intention of Herod was to do away with Yeshua once and for all. Roman footsoldiers were swift to shed innocent blood when Yeshua was scourged and crucified. Again, they thought they were through with Yeshua and his influence once and for all.

Shlama w'Burkate, Larry Kelsey

[Vsanzcm]

Shlama Thadman!
I???m sorry to perform the ???devil advocate??? in this case, but I think that the phrase makes perfect sense with FEET. First of all, we must have in account that Paul is making a ???m??lange??? of several OT???s quotes, a common rabinic practice in Midrash method:
v. 13ab > Ps 5:10
v. 13c > Ps 140:4
v. 14 > Ps 10:7
v. 15-17 > Is 59:7-8
v. 18 > Ps 36

Particularly, v. 15, is a abridgment of Is 59:7 which reads:
(KJV) Their feet [run to evil, and they] make haste to shed innocent blood.
(NIV) Their feet [rush into sin; they are] swift to shed innocent blood.

Is 59: 7 Hebrew text:
??d ??pHl wrhmyw wcry vrl ??ylgr
POT:
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0md d40ml Nybhrtsmw F4ybl N=hr Jwhylgr[/font]
LXX text:
oi de podev autwn epi ponjrian trecousin tacinoi ekceai aima

Compare to Rom 3:15 Greek text:
oxeiv oi podev autwn ekceai aima
NB. Substitution of tacinoi for oxeiv and different order of words (Was Paul quoting LXX as Zorbans state? Well, maybe a ???free??? or ???memory??? citation...)

Now, see the Peshitta text and compare with POT (NB. red text omitted):
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0md d40ml Nlylq Jwhylgrw[/font]
There???s only a change of [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Lylq [/font]for [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]+hr[/font], but the sense is the same.

What we have here, by the way, is a precious ???Semitism??? (besides the perfect synonimic parallelism of the two parts of the verse in the Isaiah Heb/POT txt): This ???tasty??? concretion typical of Semitic language (a part of the body = feeling or attitude: entrails/compassion; eye/greed; The Lord is ???long of nose???, Ex 34:6 ??yp' ??r' = ???slow to anger???, I love this last! etc.), against Greek (and modern) abstraction, So, what this ???SPEEDY FEET??? image really means ???in a perfect logic, any way??? is simply ???promptness???, or ???strong tendency??? to evil/shed innocent blood.

I hate to say this, Akhi Steve, but I think your ???feet are too swift??? to find a mistranslation here.
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Fwx0b[/font]

Ab. Valentin

[Thadman (Computer Lab)]

btw Steveo, I am using a lot of your stuff for this new compilation, is your real name as you want to be acknowledged "Steve Caruso"?

I almost forgot to answer this :-) "Steve Caruso" is what people were calling me since birth, so I'd like to stick to that tradition ("Steve Caruso"'s fine :-)).

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

[Guest]

Shlama Thadman!
I???m sorry to perform the ???devil advocate??? in this case, but I think that the phrase makes perfect sense with FEET. First of all, we must have in account that Paul is making a ???m??lange??? of several OT???s quotes, a common rabinic practice in Midrash method:
v. 13ab > Ps 5:10
v. 13c > Ps 140:4
v. 14 > Ps 10:7
v. 15-17 > Is 59:7-8
v. 18 > Ps 36

Particularly, v. 15, is a abridgment of Is 59:7 which reads:
(KJV) Their feet [run to evil, and they] make haste to shed innocent blood.
(NIV) Their feet [rush into sin; they are] swift to shed innocent blood.

Is 59: 7 Hebrew text:
??d ??pHl wrhmyw wcry vrl ??ylgr
POT:
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0md d40ml Nybhrtsmw F4ybl N=hr Jwhylgr[/font]
LXX text:
oi de podev autwn epi ponjrian trecousin tacinoi ekceai aima

Compare to Rom 3:15 Greek text:
oxeiv oi podev autwn ekceai aima
NB. Substitution of tacinoi for oxeiv and different order of words (Was Paul quoting LXX as Zorbans state? Well, maybe a ???free??? or ???memory??? citation...)

Now, see the Peshitta text and compare with POT (NB. red text omitted):
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0md d40ml Nlylq Jwhylgrw[/font]
There???s only a change of [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Lylq [/font]for [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]+hr[/font], but the sense is the same.

What we have here, by the way, is a precious ???Semitism??? (besides the perfect synonimic parallelism of the two parts of the verse in the Isaiah Heb/POT txt): This ???tasty??? concretion typical of Semitic language (a part of the body = feeling or attitude: entrails/compassion; eye/greed; The Lord is ???long of nose???, Ex 34:6 ??yp' ??r' = ???slow to anger???, I love this last! etc.), against Greek (and modern) abstraction, So, what this ???SPEEDY FEET??? image really means ???in a perfect logic, any way??? is simply ???promptness???, or ???strong tendency??? to evil/shed innocent blood.

I hate to say this, Akhi Steve, but I think your ???feet are too swift??? to find a mistranslation here.
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Fwx0b[/font]

Ab. Valentin

As soon as I get back to my dorm with some time on my hands, be prepared to debate! <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) -->

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

[drmlanc]

I don't get it. Steveo stands behind his awesome find, then tells me not to put in BSSWA???

[The Thadman]

I don't get it. Steveo stands behind his awesome find, then tells me not to put in BSSWA???

Heheh, sorry, this is a bit confusing. Don't put it into the BSSWA yet. I still need to investigate the LXX a bit deeper and look for Greek variants.

As it looks now, any Greek Primacist would argue that "The mistranslation is not in the New Testament, but in Paul's quotation of the Septuagint."

Once I get that problem solved and post evidence, feel free to use it in BSSWA! <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) --> I just want to make sure that I research it as thoroughly as possible, and that it is not easily open to Greek attack.


Shlomo,
-Steve-o

[drmlanc]

No need to apologise. I agree with your stance. You Peshitta dudes should be critical of your proofs, to avoid any problems.

But as for Septuagint, let them prove to me that the Aramaic-speaking Judeans, quoted from a Greek version of a text they SHOULD be able to read themselves ( duh! duh! duh! <!-- stupid: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/withstupid.gif" alt="tupid:" title="Stupid" /><!-- stupid: --> ), especially when the Judeans mourned over its creation <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) -->

Sometimes liars can make my blood boil <!-- s:onfire: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/onfire.gif" alt=":onfire:" title="On Fire" /><!-- s:onfire: -->

[The Thadman]

No need to apologise. I agree with your stance. You Peshitta dudes should be critical of your proofs, to avoid any problems.

But as for Septuagint, let them prove to me that the Aramaic-speaking Judeans, quoted from a Greek version of a text they SHOULD be able to read themselves ( duh! duh! duh! <!-- stupid: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/withstupid.gif" alt="tupid:" title="Stupid" /><!-- stupid: --> ), especially when the Judeans mourned over its creation <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) -->

Sometimes liars can make my blood boil <!-- s:onfire: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/onfire.gif" alt=":onfire:" title="On Fire" /><!-- s:onfire: -->

Alllllright :-) Here's what I found:

LXX Isaiah 59:7:
7 ?? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???????? ????????? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ??????????? ????? ??????????? ??????? ????????? ??? ?????????? ?? ???? ????? ?????
8 ??? ???? ??????? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????????????? ?? ??????????? ??? ??? ??????? ???????
Byzantine Romans 3:15: (No variants are recorded)
15 ????? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ???? 16 ????????? ??? ?????????? ?? ???? ????? ????? 17 ??? ???? ??????? ??? ???????

The underlined sections above are what match up, where the bolded areas are what differ.

With this in mind, it looks like it is not a quote from the LXX, but a free paraphrase.

Although they are similar (and both use the same word "podes", feet), too much is different for it to be a direct quote.

LXX:
7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; desolation and destruction are in their paths. 8 The way of peace they don???t know; and there is no justice in their goings: they have made them crooked paths; whoever goes therein does not know peace.
Byz:
15 Their feet run to shed () blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they have not known

[The Thadman]

No need to apologise. I agree with your stance. You Peshitta dudes should be critical of your proofs, to avoid any problems.

But as for Septuagint, let them prove to me that the Aramaic-speaking Judeans, quoted from a Greek version of a text they SHOULD be able to read themselves ( duh! duh! duh! <!-- stupid: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/withstupid.gif" alt="tupid:" title="Stupid" /><!-- stupid: --> ), especially when the Judeans mourned over its creation <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) -->

Sometimes liars can make my blood boil <!-- s:onfire: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/onfire.gif" alt=":onfire:" title="On Fire" /><!-- s:onfire: -->

Alllllright :-) Here's what I found:

LXX Isaiah 59:7:
7 ?? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???????? ????????? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ??????????? ????? ??????????? ??????? ????????? ??? ?????????? ?? ???? ????? ?????
8 ??? ???? ??????? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????????????? ?? ??????????? ??? ??? ??????? ???????
Byzantine Romans 3:15: (No variants are recorded)
15 ????? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ???? 16 ????????? ??? ?????????? ?? ???? ????? ????? 17 ??? ???? ??????? ??? ???????

The underlined sections above are what match up, where the bolded areas are what differ.

With this in mind, it looks like it is not a quote from the LXX, but a free paraphrase.

Although they are similar (and both use the same word "podes", feet), too much is different for it to be a direct quote.

LXX:
7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; desolation and destruction are in their paths. 8 The way of peace they don???t know; and there is no justice in their goings: they have made them crooked paths; whoever goes therein does not know peace.
Byz:
15 Their feet run to shed () blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they have not known

(EDIT: Sorry about the Greek text. The form does not seem to like Unicode in Unicode, as opposed to escaped characters).

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

[Larry Kelsey]

Shlama Akhay,

I just wanted to take a minute to give an interesting variant since Romans 3:15 and Isaiah 59:7 are being compared. The first manuscript of Isaiah from Cave 1 at Qumran or to abbreviate, 1QIsa(a) {actually the 'a' is postscripted...maybe akhay Rob and Paul can show us how to raise those numbers and letters and shrink 'em down} has "ruin, destruction and violence are in their highways." The footnote reads "Not in MT LXX"
This resource is pretty nice. The full title of the book is "The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible-The Oldest Known Bible Translated for the First Time into English-translated and with commentary by Martin Abegg Jr., Peter Flint, & Eugene Ulrich"

Shlama w'Burkate, Larry Kelsey