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Matthew 7:11: <you>
#1
Matthew 7: 7 - 14 (RSV):

[7] "Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
[8] For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
[9] Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?
[10] Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?
[11] If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
[12] So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
[13] "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
[14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.


Hello everyone --

I'm following another Trail again.  The above Passage reads, to me, as another of the "Herod Stories".  Herod builds a Safe Harbor at Caesarea, hocks everything in the palace to buy bread from the Procurator Petronius in Egypt and distributes the bread to everyone regardless of whether people support Herod or not.  Many are worried that this "Goodwill" will lead people astray.  There is a BLISTERING famine throughout Judea and Syria occurring at this time.

There are "Jokes" in this .  Verses 7 - 8 tell of those who would seek any type of help..  The key "Joke" is verse 9.  The Safe Harbor is constructed by dropping giant stones in the harbor to form a breakwater.

Mark 9: 42 (RSV) (Also: Matthew 18: 6):

[42] "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea.

If you look up this verse in the Interlinear on this site, you get the important literal, "...millstone of a donkey...".

Verse 10 continues: "Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent".  A nod to the Story of Moses and the Staff.
...
Which leads us to verse 11. 

"[11] If you then, who are evil...

Fairly simple, yes?  Maybe.

The Interlinear has "...and if...<you>...who are imperfect...".

Precisely at the point where an identifier for "Herod" would be found is "<you>" in inequality brackets.  Why?  We may find the most trivial reason here but I ask for some help. 

Thank you,

Charles
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#2
Charles, for the life of me, I don't see how you see any connection to Herod in the passage you cited, but, in Vs 11 we have in the Aramaic text "you who are the evil ones" and the very same word ܕ݁ܒ݂ܝܼܫܹܐ {biyshe} as given here, is also found in Matthew 12:24 and Luke 11:13. Perhaps he is speaking this to some of the religious leaders who may have been among the people that day.

Charles
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#3
Thirdwoe --


I thank you very much.  I can certainly agree with "...you [2nd person plural] who are evil...".  Makes sense.

As to whether this echoes Herod:

Josephus, Ant..., 15, 9, 1+:

" NOW on this very year, which was the thirteenth year of the reign of Herod, very great calamities came upon the country; whether they were derived from the anger of God, or whether this misery returns again naturally in certain periods of time for, in the first place, there were perpetual droughts, and for that reason the ground was barren, and did not bring forth the same quantity of fruits that it used to produce..."

Famine.  Big time famine.

"In these circumstances he [Herod] considered with himself how to procure some seasonable help; but this was a hard thing to be done, while their neighbors had no food to sell them; and their money also was gone, had it been possible to purchase a little food at a great price. However, he thought it his best way, by all means, not to leave off his endeavors to assist his people; so he cut off the rich furniture that was in his palace, both of silver and gold, insomuch that he did not spare the finest vessels he had, or those that were made with the most elaborate skill of the artificers, but sent the money to Petronius, who had been made prefect of Egypt by Caesar..."

Herod sells the palace furniture and pays Petronius in Egypt for any grain he can obtain. Hence: "...Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? ", echoing the Escape from Egypt.

"And Herod taking care the people should understand that this help came from himself, did thereby not only remove the ill opinion of those that formerly hated him, but gave them the greatest demonstration possible of his good-will to them, and care of them; for, in the first place, as for those who were able to provide their own food, he distributed to them their proportion of corn in the exactest manner; but for those many that were not able, either by reason of their old age, or any other infirmity, to provide food for themselves, he made this provision for them, the bakers should make their bread ready for them..."

Here is Mark (and Matthew): " "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea...".  What is interesting is that Matthew has the Markan quote as well.  Which leads to: "Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?"  What does "Stone" have to do with "Bread"?  Appearance?...Or something else?

Herod is evil.  If he can tempt some with bread and have them change their opinion of him, it would be better if a giant stone were tied around his neck and be thrown into the sea.  Why? Herod will turn this into a moment of glory for him:

"Now it happened that this care of his, and this seasonable benefaction, had such influence on the Jews, and was so cried up among other nations, as to wipe off that old hatred which his violation of some of their customs, during his reign, had procured him among all the nation, and that this liberality of his assistance in this their greatest necessity was full satisfaction for all that he had done of that nature, as it also procured him great fame among foreigners; and it looked as if these calamities that afflicted his land, to a degree plainly incredible, came in order to raise his glory, and to be to his great advantage..."

Question: Look at the Markan quote again.  Did anyone ever throw "...millstones of a donkey" into the sea? Herod did:

"Now upon his observation of a place near the sea, which was very proper for containing a city, and was before called Strato's Tower, he set about getting a plan for a magnificent city there, and erected many edifices with great diligence all over it, and this of white stone. He also adorned it with most sumptuous palaces and large edifices for containing the people; and what was the greatest and most laborious work of all, he adorned it with a haven, that was always free from the waves of the sea. Its largeness was not less than the Pyrmum [at Athens], and had towards the city a double station for the ships. It was of excellent workmanship; and this was the more remarkable for its being built in a place that of itself was not suitable to such noble structures, but was to be brought to perfection by materials from other places, and at very great expenses. This city is situate in Phoenicia, in the passage by sea to Egypt, between Joppa and Dora, which are lesser maritime cities, and not fit for havens, on account of the impetuous south winds that beat upon them, which rolling the sands that come from the sea against the shores, do not admit of ships lying in their station; but the merchants are generally there forced to ride at their anchors in the sea itself. So Herod endeavored to rectify this inconvenience, and laid out such a compass towards the land as might be sufficient for a haven, wherein the great ships might lie in safety; and this he effected by letting down vast stones of above fifty feet in length, not less than eighteen in breadth, and nine in depth, into twenty fathom deep; and as some were lesser, so were others bigger than those dimensions..."

You can find many pictures of the remains of the Safe Harbor of Caesarea.  That's why I find an explanation of the language used.  Herod was evil since he did many things for his glory and not the Glory of God.  He also, for example, opened the Temple on the anniversary of his ascension so you worship God and you worship Herod.  He was DEEPLY hated.

"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

CW
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#4
Matthew 4: 2 - 4 (RSV)

[2] And he fasted forty days and forty nights, and afterward he was hungry.
[3] And the tempter came and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread."
[4] But he answered, "It is written, `Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'"

"...command these stones to become loaves of bread."

Same relationship of Symbolism.
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#5
Hey Charles, I'm assuming you are you a Christian, and if so, was wondering what church do you attend?

CH
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#6
Quote:Matthew 4: 2 - 4 (RSV)

[2] And he fasted forty days and forty nights, and afterward he was hungry.
[3] And the tempter came and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread."
[4] But he answered, "It is written, `Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.'"

"...command these stones to become loaves of bread."

Same relationship of Symbolism.

In the Torah written long before Herod existed we find strong parallels pointed to by Yeshua himself between the 40 days and nights of fasting/testing of Moses/Israel in the wilderness vs the 40 days and nights of fasting/testing of Yeshua in the wilderness with symbolic links between stones and bread in both cases:

Yeshua’s fasting 40 days and nights in the wilderness:

And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He then became hungry. (Mat 4.2 NAU)

Moses’ fasting 40 days and nights in the wilderness:

"When I went up to the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant which the LORD had made with you, then I remained on the mountain forty days and nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water. (Deu 9.9 NAU)

Instead of bread Moses was given the word on tablets of stone from God prefigured by Israel given manna from heaven to sustain them (both reflected in Yeshua as the Word and manna from heaven who is the bread of life) which is also recalled by Moses in the same discourse:

“He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD.” [Targum Onkelos: every forth-coming word (מֵימַר) from before the Lord] (Deu 8.3 NAU, notes in brackets)

Yeshua reiterates this passage during his own fasting and testing, drawing our attention to these typological parallels and OT fulfillments:

And the tempter came and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."
But He answered and said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'" (Mat 4.3-4 NAU)

As Moses was given the commandments in the wilderness during the 40 days and nights of fasting, during the 40 days and nights of fasting Yeshua shows it was he, as YHWH Elohim, who gave the commandments to Moses:

   Then the devil [Peshitta: אכלקרצא lit. consumer of pieces/destruction; idiom for informer or accuser] took Him into the holy city and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it is written, 'HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU'; and 'ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP, SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.'"
   Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, 'YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD [יְהוָ֖ה אֱלֹהֵיכֶ֑ם (Deu 6.16 MT); למריא אלהך (Mt 4.7 Peshitta)] TO THE TEST.'" (Mat 4.5-7 NAU, my notes in brackets)

Likewise the Israelites were tested during the same 40 days and nights in the wilderness but by the intercession of one man, Mosses, a remnant were saved, and by the intercession of one man, Yeshua, the faithful are saved.

Yeshua was tested in the wilderness for 40 days after he was brought out of the water of the Jordan river just as Israel was tested in the wilderness for 40 days (40 years overall) after they were brought out of the Red Sea (Yam Suph).

Further parallels with Noah coming out of the flood and raining 40 days can also be drawn. 40 is associated with trials/birthpangs, birth out of the dark waters of the womb after 40 weeks of human gestation (avg) when the child is born with a loud cry/shout and the breath/ruach enters as the Spirit/bird or dove figure present in all cases. Genesis 1.2f has similar elements syncing up thematic of Rosh Hashanah/Feast of Trumpets and the birthpangs of the Messiah’s return on the last trump with a shout as prefigured in the star map depicted in Rev 12.1-2 on his first coming on Rosh Hashanah 3/2 BCE.


Quote:Verse 10 continues: "Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent".  A nod to the Story of Moses and the Staff.

If this is a contrasting statement parallel to bread (to eat) and a stone (not to eat), then the nod would more likely be to the fiery serpents (not to eat vs a fish to eat.. like bread, hence fish and loaves) sent to attack the rebellious Israelites.

This allusion is included in the same speech again quoted above which Yeshua nodded to already with a quote.

"He led you through the great and terrible wilderness, with its fiery serpents [Westminster Morph gives a variant: נָחָ֤שׁ cf Gen 3.1] and scorpions and thirsty ground where there was no water; He brought water for you out of the rock of flint. (Deu 8.15 NAU, notes in brackets)

Mark’s gospel includes a similar element (wild creatures) when touching on Yeshua’s testing in the wilderness:

And He was in the wilderness forty days being tempted by Satan; and He was with the wild beasts [חיותא animals, creatures, beasts; cp Gen 3.1 nachash = chayyah (creature, beast, etc): וְהַנָּחָשׁ֙ הָיָ֣ה עָר֔וּם מִכֹּל֙ חַיַּ֣ת הַשָּׂדֶ֔ה], and the angels were ministering to Him. (Mar 1.13 NAU +notes)

Yeshua’s tempter in the wilderness is called Satan in this verse. Interestingly, when we read the Aramaic paraphrase we find Satan is also mentioned in Israel’s testing during the same 40 day trial in the wilderness, in the midst of the ‘festivities’ around the golden calf as if leading the crowd:

And it was when Mosheh came near the camp, and saw the calf, and the instruments of music in the hands of the wicked, who were dancing and bowing before it, and Satana among them dancing and leaping before the people, the wrath of Mosheh was suddenly kindled… (Exo 32.19a PJE)


PS - Pray we do not let the tempter steal our faith with endless deceptive contrivances, ploys, distractions and with tribulations that will increase and not just in the Middle East or Asia as our media covers it up with silence, as with the apostles and martyrs ever since then to today, lest any of you should be disheartened by these afflictions; for ye know, that we are appointed thereto. For also when we were with you, we forewarned you, that we were to be afflicted; as ye know did occur. Therefore also I could not be quiet, until I sent to learn your faith; lest the Tempter should have tempted you, and our labor have been in vain. (1Th 3.3-5 MRD);

My beloved, be not dismayed at the trials that befall you, as if some strange thing had come upon you; for these things are for your probation. But rejoice, that ye participate in the sufferings of the Messiah, that so ye may also rejoice and exult at the revelation of his glory. And if ye are reproached on account of the name of the Messiah, happy are ye: for the glorious Spirit of God resteth upon you. (1Pe 4.12-14 MRD)

The rabbis teach that in the reversal of fortunes, the western powers (ie, Edom/Aram/Rome/US/Christianity -- "Armillus" Judaism's answer to the antichrist) will be destroyed as Jerusalem becomes the new world power center with their expected Messiah — the controlled demolition of the west and the US embassy move to Jerusalem are steps in this direction. Prepare yourselves for very very grievous times and what many signs point to a fiery take down of the US capitol hill (capitoline Jupiter temple) as would appear to be the Freemasonic plan from the foundations of the country like the phoenix -- once a candidate for the national bird -- to rise from the ashes with a Freemasonic temple in Jerusalem.

Now is not the time to hide but be bold. Study the scriptures because Satan's plan is laid out and we have prophetic previews of what to expect from the apostles who went through very similar situations leading up to the sacking of their temple and nation when the Jews revolted expecting their messiah to overthrow Edom/Rome or he who restrains if you will; be ye built up anew, in your holy faith, through the Holy Spirit, while ye pray. And let us keep ourselves in the love of God, while we wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus the Messiah unto our eternal life. And some of them, snatch ye from the fire. (Jud 1.20-22 MRD)
"All that openeth the matrix is mine" -Exodus 34.19a
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