12-14-2017, 05:08 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-14-2017, 05:27 AM by gregglaser.)
Aux, lol?? How are you so confident that all of gematria is Babylonian harlotry? Here is an example of gematria in action (to assist the study of Genesis 14:14):
What specifically about the above article would lead a student astray into "the lap of the hoodwinked harlot herself" as you wrote? Isn't gematria just reinforcing with numbers a connection already made by words? Is it possible gematria could have been encoded in places by ܐܠܗܐ to show words and numbers in harmony for some greater purpose?
A Mishnaic textual source states that the use of Jewish Gematria is dated to at least the Tannaic period (10-220 A.D.), “The calculation of the equinoxes and gematriot are the desserts of wisdom.”
Interesting that around the time of the apostles in Israel gematria was explicitly associated with wisdom. See also:
I don’t know man, it seems like a reasonable thing for students to consider that our Father writes meaning in letters and numbers, shapes, emotions, stars, and so much more. So I would probably encourage you to reconsider your position that you wrote, “the unbiblical, gnostic, man-made tradition -- essentially Babylonian Mystery/Secret religious practice of gematria -- the exact opposite of the wisdom of revelation to the congregations and squarely in the lap of the hoodwinked harlot herself.”
With that said, I’m listening to what you’re sharing, and I read Numbers 1:2, though I do still have questions about the application of Numbers 1:2 to Revelation 13:18. You know, I might recommend more gentleness in your approach to sharing your opinions here on the forum. It usually doesn’t bear fruit to call other Christians foolish for trying to learn about an interpretive text in a way that might not jive 100% with your interpretation of that interpretive text. There are a lot of numbers in Revelation, and spiritual layers, and people are at different places in their studies. It may even be that there is more than one answer to the 666 question?
As an aside, I wasn’t trying to say gematria is like water, but rather gospel words are like water. I’m glad for this opportunity to clarify -- both gospel and water are created by ܐܠܗܐ inside of something physical (water inside earth; gospel inside man). Many of the techniques to use/filter gospel words, and to use water, are implemented by man. Gematria is an example: a man-made technique to use or shape gospel words, just like plumbing is a man-made technique to use or shape water. Even Babylonian plumbing itself is not necessarily bad, nor has gematria been proven automatically bad, even though both plumbing and gematria both historically & currently are involved in carrying some gnarly stuff around.
Regarding “wisdom” in Revelation 13:18, a precedent is found in Revelation 17:9, because it uses similar language: “Here is logic to him having wisdom: seven heads are seven mountains where she sat, the woman upon them.”
Applying that precedent to your theory: does counting heads from 1 to 666 require logic or wisdom? That was my question. I would think wisdom and logic are found in the understanding (a) who to count and (b) what the 666 number represents spiritually, just like how in Revelation 17:9 the 7 heads (spiritually) represented 7 mountains (spiritually) that in turn represented 7 sovereigns (physically). Somehow spiritual discernment is required to see what this number of a son of man, 666, actually represents: who & what.
My current thinking is that 6 is the number of man because, for example, Adam was created “sovereign” on day 6, per Genesis 1:26. And then 6 grows exponentially as sovereign man expands in grandeur, as we see for example with the sovereign Nebuchadnezer’s 60 x 6 cubit golden statue of himself. Daniel 3:1. At the end of the age, I think we can expect to see six (sovereign man) plus sixty (something like Nebuchadnezzar’s golden statue) plus six hundred (something artificial, probably computer-based?). Another key reference from the Old Testament is that in 2 Chronicles 9:13, the sovereign Solomon collected 666 talents of gold through taxes, tributes, and so forth.
In summary, I think three important clues to discerning 666 are: (1) sovereign man growing exponentially, (2) sovereignty growing in a direction from natural to artificial, (3) something about money (really, tribute).
And now you have also added another clue: census. Good for you. What is a census? It is counting heads for a purpose, often by a sovereign for purposes of military or taxation. And as you highlighted with examples like 1 Chronicles 21:1 (Satan inspires David to conduct a census of soldiers), sometimes ܡܪܝܐ does not like the purpose of a census.
There is also a new testament precedent: the head tax paid with Caesar’s coin. Perhaps that could be another way a census relates to money & taxation, as we recall Rev 13:17, “no person will buy/exchange or sell/exchange again unless he/she has upon him/her the mark of the name of the living being or the number of her/its name.”
If we identified the beast (notably, the Aramaic grammar in the Crawford Codex suggests the beast is feminine), how would a researcher use a census to identify the number of her/its name? Would the researcher count 666 of her/its relatives? Seems like that research could require quite a laborious and inexact genealogy, rather than what you originally proposed in your post, “straightforward open spirit of Wisdom”. The bible has never described a census as wisdom or logic (not even in Numbers 2:1), so I would respectfully venture that what you’ve found in your research above is a clue toward an answer rather than the answer itself. Or am I missing something?
As for how gematria informs Revelation 13, if at all, that’s just an open question. As Chuck said, you can think whatever you want dude. I might just recommend that before you bash people and all of gematria, maybe try asking some simple questions with little steps. First, is it okay to recognize that ܐ (“aleph”) is the first letter and can be associated with the number 1? Yes, okay then… is it okay to recognize that ܐ (“aleph”) plus ܒ (“bet”) equals three? Yes, okay then… is it okay to recognize the numerical value of names and words, like how the name ܝܫܘܥ (“Yahshua”) equals 53 (53 = 10 + 21 + 6 + 16 = ܝ + ܫ + ܘ + ܥ ) and the word ܡܫܝܚܐ (“Messiah”) also equals 53. If so, it feels like that type of counting (gematria), in the right context, can contribute toward a person’s appreciation for Yahshua as the Messiah.
You know, one of the key lessons of the Messiah coming to Earth as a human: he took our perspective. He spoke the language of the Jewish people, and talked about the things that were relevant to a man’s daily life, such as farming, following the law, what to do about Romans, should we pay taxes. If gematria was part of some people’s perspectives, just like astronomy was part of people’s perspectives, you can expect these things to align in the right context to give glory to ܐܠܗܐ.
Granted, just like water, some words of the gospel will be misused and misinterpreted by men’s hearts gone astray. But the original water itself is from ܐܠܗܐ. We are all currently using and shaping water in unique ways. Please be patient with other students.
After the number six comes the number seven, which is the letter ܙ (“zayin”). I like to imagine this letter & number is associated with the Messiah and His city Zion. A city is ultimately a network of interconnected people. If we are experiencing the age of the number ‘six’ right now, imagine the lessons His children can learn in the future experiencing fellowship in Zion.
Quote:BIBLICAL Horizons, No. 133
September, 2000
by James B. Jordan
Genesis 14:14 says that Abram mustered his trained men, “born in his house,” to rescue Lot, and gives their number as 318. It is clear that the precise number is provided for some reason, but what is it?
S. Gevirtz notes that 318 is the sum of all the prime numbers between 7 and 72, to wit: 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, & 47. [“Abram’s 318,” Israel Exploration Journal 19 (1969):110-113.] There are twelve primes in this set. Certainly, then, 318 is an interesting number, incorporating both 7 and 12. While this is true, it is not clear what it might have to do with the events in question.
The traditional rabbinic explanation is that 318 is the numerical value of the name of Abram’s chief servant, Eliezer (א = 1; ל = 30; י = 10; ע = 70; ז = 7; ר = 200). Gevirtz and others question this traditional explanation for two reasons. First, they say that there is no evidence for the use of gematria (see previous article) among the Jews prior to the Hellenistic period. To this we must reply that there is no evidence against it either. The fact is that just about the only Hebrew literature we have available to consult is the Old Testament. If we have a case of gematria here in Genesis 14, then that is evidence that it was employed from early times.
...
Eliezer is Abram’s official son and heir, provided Abram never begets any children from his own loins. As such, Eliezer is clearly preeminent among all the other “homeborn sons” in Abram’s sheikhdom.
And this takes us back to Genesis 14:14. The 318 fighting men were all such adopted sons, “born in the house.” Eliezer was their captain. Thus, we have a clear link between the name Eliezer and the number 318 in this story.
Of course, this does not answer every question we have. It is interesting that the text tells us that 318 men went forth to rescue Lot, and that 318 is the number of the name of the lieutenant of this host. But why? Is this merely a curiosity?
I think that the explanation lies in the overall theology of Genesis. Repeatedly we are shown a younger son replacing an older son, as the second Adam must replace the first. The salvation of the older son is linked to the younger son: Joseph must save his older brothers; Esau’s salvation, if he wants it, is linked to Jacob.
In Genesis 13, Lot separated from Abram and moved into gentile territory, becoming part of the gentiles. Up until this point, Lot was Abram’s nearest relative, and thus his “son” and heir. Lot, thus, is like the older son who falls into sin. Now the younger son, Eliezer, comes with the father to rescue the wayward older son.
Practically speaking, neither Eliezer by himself, nor he and Abram alone, could have rescued Lot from Chedorlaomer’s army. They needed a company of men. But since the “homeborn” men numbered 318, and this links to Eliezer, captain of the “homeborn” men, the writer of Genesis wants us to make this connection. To use language closer to the New Testament: The father and his son, with the son’s church-people, ride forth to rescue the lost sheep.
In conclusion: It seems that for whatever reason, Abram took 318 men to rescue Lot. This may have been all the men he had, or all that were available. Or he may have had some other reason for taking this many. As it turns out, this number is the number of the name of Eliezer, captain of this host, and Abram’s son and heir. This coincidence happens in God’s providence, and is recorded for us so that we see once again the younger son moving out to rescue the wayward older son.
http://www.biblicalhorizons.com/biblical...s-318-men/
What specifically about the above article would lead a student astray into "the lap of the hoodwinked harlot herself" as you wrote? Isn't gematria just reinforcing with numbers a connection already made by words? Is it possible gematria could have been encoded in places by ܐܠܗܐ to show words and numbers in harmony for some greater purpose?
A Mishnaic textual source states that the use of Jewish Gematria is dated to at least the Tannaic period (10-220 A.D.), “The calculation of the equinoxes and gematriot are the desserts of wisdom.”
Interesting that around the time of the apostles in Israel gematria was explicitly associated with wisdom. See also:
Quote:Greek letters came into official use as numbers in the third to second centuries B.C.E., although the system of correspondences was invented earlier. By the time of the first two centuries of the Common Era gematria using the Greek alphabet was being practiced in a variety of ways. "I love her whose number is 545," is one of several examples found scribbled as graffiti on the walls of Pompeii.
...
C. Levias, writing in The Jewish Encyclopedia, argues that the existence of atbash, the permutative cyphering of letters, in Jeremiah makes it likely that gematria also exists in OT scripture, and cites Gen 14:14, Deut 31:1-6, and Ezek 5:2 as probable examples. A. G. Wright has suggested that examples of gematria can be found in the Book of Qoheleth (c. 250 B.C.E.) and P. W. Skehan has identified possible instances in Proverbs (c. 600 B.C.E.).
Skehan's reply to those who argue for a later assignment of numerical values to the Hebrew letters is illuminating: "...which is more likely: that the Greeks established this system for their borrowed alphabet by the 6th century B.C. (when digamma, or waw, and qoppa, or qoph, ceased to be functional for them except as the numbers 6 and 90), and then handed back their little invention to their Semitic neighbors at least three centuries later; or that they found the Semitic alphabet, including waw and qoph, already being used in this way when they borrowed it about 800 B.C.?"
I don’t know man, it seems like a reasonable thing for students to consider that our Father writes meaning in letters and numbers, shapes, emotions, stars, and so much more. So I would probably encourage you to reconsider your position that you wrote, “the unbiblical, gnostic, man-made tradition -- essentially Babylonian Mystery/Secret religious practice of gematria -- the exact opposite of the wisdom of revelation to the congregations and squarely in the lap of the hoodwinked harlot herself.”
With that said, I’m listening to what you’re sharing, and I read Numbers 1:2, though I do still have questions about the application of Numbers 1:2 to Revelation 13:18. You know, I might recommend more gentleness in your approach to sharing your opinions here on the forum. It usually doesn’t bear fruit to call other Christians foolish for trying to learn about an interpretive text in a way that might not jive 100% with your interpretation of that interpretive text. There are a lot of numbers in Revelation, and spiritual layers, and people are at different places in their studies. It may even be that there is more than one answer to the 666 question?
As an aside, I wasn’t trying to say gematria is like water, but rather gospel words are like water. I’m glad for this opportunity to clarify -- both gospel and water are created by ܐܠܗܐ inside of something physical (water inside earth; gospel inside man). Many of the techniques to use/filter gospel words, and to use water, are implemented by man. Gematria is an example: a man-made technique to use or shape gospel words, just like plumbing is a man-made technique to use or shape water. Even Babylonian plumbing itself is not necessarily bad, nor has gematria been proven automatically bad, even though both plumbing and gematria both historically & currently are involved in carrying some gnarly stuff around.
Regarding “wisdom” in Revelation 13:18, a precedent is found in Revelation 17:9, because it uses similar language: “Here is logic to him having wisdom: seven heads are seven mountains where she sat, the woman upon them.”
Applying that precedent to your theory: does counting heads from 1 to 666 require logic or wisdom? That was my question. I would think wisdom and logic are found in the understanding (a) who to count and (b) what the 666 number represents spiritually, just like how in Revelation 17:9 the 7 heads (spiritually) represented 7 mountains (spiritually) that in turn represented 7 sovereigns (physically). Somehow spiritual discernment is required to see what this number of a son of man, 666, actually represents: who & what.
My current thinking is that 6 is the number of man because, for example, Adam was created “sovereign” on day 6, per Genesis 1:26. And then 6 grows exponentially as sovereign man expands in grandeur, as we see for example with the sovereign Nebuchadnezer’s 60 x 6 cubit golden statue of himself. Daniel 3:1. At the end of the age, I think we can expect to see six (sovereign man) plus sixty (something like Nebuchadnezzar’s golden statue) plus six hundred (something artificial, probably computer-based?). Another key reference from the Old Testament is that in 2 Chronicles 9:13, the sovereign Solomon collected 666 talents of gold through taxes, tributes, and so forth.
In summary, I think three important clues to discerning 666 are: (1) sovereign man growing exponentially, (2) sovereignty growing in a direction from natural to artificial, (3) something about money (really, tribute).
And now you have also added another clue: census. Good for you. What is a census? It is counting heads for a purpose, often by a sovereign for purposes of military or taxation. And as you highlighted with examples like 1 Chronicles 21:1 (Satan inspires David to conduct a census of soldiers), sometimes ܡܪܝܐ does not like the purpose of a census.
There is also a new testament precedent: the head tax paid with Caesar’s coin. Perhaps that could be another way a census relates to money & taxation, as we recall Rev 13:17, “no person will buy/exchange or sell/exchange again unless he/she has upon him/her the mark of the name of the living being or the number of her/its name.”
If we identified the beast (notably, the Aramaic grammar in the Crawford Codex suggests the beast is feminine), how would a researcher use a census to identify the number of her/its name? Would the researcher count 666 of her/its relatives? Seems like that research could require quite a laborious and inexact genealogy, rather than what you originally proposed in your post, “straightforward open spirit of Wisdom”. The bible has never described a census as wisdom or logic (not even in Numbers 2:1), so I would respectfully venture that what you’ve found in your research above is a clue toward an answer rather than the answer itself. Or am I missing something?
As for how gematria informs Revelation 13, if at all, that’s just an open question. As Chuck said, you can think whatever you want dude. I might just recommend that before you bash people and all of gematria, maybe try asking some simple questions with little steps. First, is it okay to recognize that ܐ (“aleph”) is the first letter and can be associated with the number 1? Yes, okay then… is it okay to recognize that ܐ (“aleph”) plus ܒ (“bet”) equals three? Yes, okay then… is it okay to recognize the numerical value of names and words, like how the name ܝܫܘܥ (“Yahshua”) equals 53 (53 = 10 + 21 + 6 + 16 = ܝ + ܫ + ܘ + ܥ ) and the word ܡܫܝܚܐ (“Messiah”) also equals 53. If so, it feels like that type of counting (gematria), in the right context, can contribute toward a person’s appreciation for Yahshua as the Messiah.
You know, one of the key lessons of the Messiah coming to Earth as a human: he took our perspective. He spoke the language of the Jewish people, and talked about the things that were relevant to a man’s daily life, such as farming, following the law, what to do about Romans, should we pay taxes. If gematria was part of some people’s perspectives, just like astronomy was part of people’s perspectives, you can expect these things to align in the right context to give glory to ܐܠܗܐ.
Granted, just like water, some words of the gospel will be misused and misinterpreted by men’s hearts gone astray. But the original water itself is from ܐܠܗܐ. We are all currently using and shaping water in unique ways. Please be patient with other students.
After the number six comes the number seven, which is the letter ܙ (“zayin”). I like to imagine this letter & number is associated with the Messiah and His city Zion. A city is ultimately a network of interconnected people. If we are experiencing the age of the number ‘six’ right now, imagine the lessons His children can learn in the future experiencing fellowship in Zion.