Thread Rating:
  • 1 Vote(s) - 4 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
The Revelation of 666 from Moses and Ezra
#1
Lightbulb 
Good to be back. Where is everyone!

I wanted to share something I've pieced together over the years and recently compressed into a post. It's about the nature of the "mark of the beast" and 666, etc. Some may have already realized it themselves,for all the commentary commentary and discussion on this subject over the last 1900+ years, I've never seen anyone explain it this way before, and the mountains of disinfo and counter-intelligence low-life trolls posing as helpful buddies on messageboards on the #WWWiretap is horrendous.

There's no Aramaic involved in the discussion unfortunately since the earliest copy of Revelation is in Greek (AFAIK) and I didn't consult the Aramaic translation of the Greek that we have (not yet anyways), but I was hoping someone here might have insight from the Eastern perspective on this, I'd love to hear it. I do find it kinda funny that folk in NT scholarship say that the author John's first language was Aramaic based on the poor Greek writing as Bart Ehrman does on his blog here.

Here are my thoughts:


Quote:It appears John is referring to nothing more than a census or numbering of heads in regards to 666. Moses conducted one in the book of NUMBERS and so did the high priest Ezra in the return from Babylon — John uses nearly identical language from both cases when he refers to the “number of his name” and the “number of a man.” It’s as if John was trying to make the text foolproof so the reader did not misunderstand what he was talking about rather than concealing the meaning, but we will not understand if we do not listen to the Word, listen to Wisdom. Here is Wisdom:

Take ye the sum [רֹאשׁ lit. head] of all the congregation of the children [sons] of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of their names, [LXX: ἀριθμὸν ἐξ ὀνόματος αὐτῶν] every male by their poll [ גֻלְגְּלֹתָֽם lit. skulls] (Numbers 1.2 KJV, my notes in brackets)

And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name [ἀριθμὸν τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ]. (Rev 13.17 KJV, my notes in brackets)

Here are the key phrases side by side in Greek:
ἀριθμὸν ἐξ ὀνόματος αὐτῶν –Num 1.2 (LXX)
ἀριθμὸν τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ –Rev 13.17 (Nestle-Aland 27h Ed)

Here is how Ezra records the census in his day, first verse included for context:

Now these are the children [sons] of the province that went up out of the captivity, of those which had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away unto Babylon, and came again unto Jerusalem and Judah, every one unto his city; Which came with Zerubbabel: Jeshua, Nehemiah, Seraiah, Reelaiah, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispar, Bigvai, Rehum, Baanah. The number of the men [LXX: ἀνδρῶν ἀριθμὸς] of the people of Israel (Ezra 2.1-2 KJV, my notes)

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man [ἀριθμὸς γὰρ ἀνθρώπου]; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. (Rev 13.18 KJV, my notes)

Side by side use of language referring to numbering sons of men:
ἀνδρῶν ἀριθμὸς –Ezra 2.2 (LXX)
ἀριθμὸς γὰρ ἀνθρώπου –Rev 13.18 (Nestle-Aland 27h Ed)

Another link between the census here in Revelation 13.18 and Ezra’s census is the infamous number 666 itself:

The children [sons] of Adonikam [אֲדֹ֣נִיקָ֔ם lit. “my lord has arisen”], six hundred sixty and six. (Ezr 2.13 KJV)

Inclusively, we come to 667 and perhaps homiletically we could say that the so-called perfect man symbolized by triple sixes is not the case:

The children [sons] of Adonikam, six hundred threescore and seven. (Neh 7.18 KJV)

Not only does John use similar language used in the old testament for numbering the sons of Israel, but the very next verse following Rev 13.18 refers to the number of the sons of the 12 tribes of Israel sealed with the name of God who were numbered in a census in Revelation 7.4-8. This gives us the same language combined with the same context of the language pointing to a census [twice]. All the tribes are represented among the 144,000 except for the tribe of Dan, this may tell us what tribe the 666 are from, in which case all the tribes are now represented.

That the tribe of Dan is separated from the 12 tribes is also found in the old testament when Dan is left out of the genealogies of the 12 tribes in 1Chronicles 4-7, apparently forsaking their inheritance when they moved out of their allotment. An argument of Dan being absent from Balaam’s parable-prophecy in Numbers 24 could also be made.

Irenaeus accepts that the Antichrist is from the tribe of Dan without reservation quoting from Jeremiah, however he would also need to be related to the House of David, or at the very least claim to be, in order to satisfy biblical prophecies and the expectations of rabbis, and Dan was known to mix with other tribes and nations early on.

The number 666 may be a literal number of sons, as seen in Ezra 2.13, like the 144,000 and could also have symbolic meaning — the two don’t need to be mutually exclusive. These numbers are only focused on the tribes of Israel, not Gentiles.

The mark and name are the same thing, ESV’s rendering brings this out best, and we see the antithesis to the antichrist’s name/mark in Rev 14.1. The case could be made further in studying more passages in the old testament but that would be beyond the scope of this post. BUT, the number of the name refers to sons of a family name.

So we have two different components to the prophecy here: the (renewed Sinai) covenant and the people of the covenant — The antichrist has his marriage covenant with the harlot and Christ has his marriage covenant with the virgin bride. The woman takes the name of the husband in marriage and it is non-physical (ie, not a microchip!).

The name or mark is spiritual, however many Jews wear phylacteries or tephillin on their forehead (thoughts) and hand/arm (works) with the Name (שׁדי Shaddai) and the Sinai covenant marriage text as an outward fulfillment of the text itself (cf Mat 23.5). You cannot buy or sell the offerings and sacrifices with the merchants and money changers in the outer court of the temple unless you accept the covenant marriage and receive the name.

Well I tried to keep it short but it's hard to know where to stop. I did a video touching on this [last year] and how transgenderism/transhumanism fits in with AI and more in my video, Robot Sex and the Holy of Holies which I'm open to constructive criticism on if you have time to look at it -- I still say it's the most important video on youtube but I may be biased.

It goes deeper at openthematrix.

I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

Blessings in the name of Yeshua who crushes the ggg/666.
Reply
#2
It's gematria...
Reply
#3
(12-06-2017, 05:16 AM)Thirdwoe Wrote: It's gematria...

As I mentioned to the respondent in the discussion when this came up, I'm having trouble finding any clear scriptural proof or examples of numeric gematria being used or validated as biblically-endorsed hermeneutics.

Irenaeus gives some personal extra-biblical considerations using it but he also points to this method being problematic and says, "It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfillment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned" [emphasis mine]. This is not to mention other aspects of the prophecies any proposed candidates have failed to fulfill, but that's a separate issue.

Do you know of any biblical examples for using numerical gematria?
"All that openeth the matrix is mine" -Exodus 34.19a
Reply
#4
That was interesting to read and watch. Thank you for sharing Aux. I think you’re right to put a spotlight on transhumanism and AI as fundamental threats to mankind today.

In your video you highlight Daniel 2:43, but in your written postings you didn’t cover it (or did I miss it?). I actually thought Daniel 2:43 was one of your most interesting connections.

I looked at the Aramaic Old Testament of Daniel 2:43 today and found the grammar is actually a bit different than the Young’s Literal Translation that you cited the text in your video.

The Aramaic to English is “And you saw iron that was mixed with earth of clay. In this way they will be mixed in the seed of man. And not they will be joined one to one, as iron is not mixing with clay.”

Compare the YLT, “Because thou hast seen iron mixed with miry clay, they are mixing themselves with the seed of men: and they are not adhering one with another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.”

The operative phrase in Aramaic is ܢܬܚܠܜܘܢ (“they will be mixed”). The Aramaic doesn’t suggest who is responsible for mixing iron and clay. But the YLT suggests the iron is the one actively mixing itself with clay.

In any case, it’s interpretive. The Aramaic root word there ܚܠܜ also means “irredeemable” in the sense of final judgment.
Feels like that’s what’s coming sooner than later.
Reply
#5
"while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six…" Irenaeus: Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 28.

i.e. Gematria.

Time with tell who the numbers point to...whether in the past, today, or in the future.

.

.
Reply
#6
(12-08-2017, 05:55 AM)Thirdwoe Wrote: "while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six…" Irenaeus: Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 28.

i.e. Gematria.

Time with tell who the numbers point to...whether in the past, today, or in the future.

It seems odd there's no precedent for this method of interpretation among biblical texts or even secondary Jewish texts until centuries (?) after Revelation was written apparently. Irenaeus, believed to be a Gentile, seems to be one of the earliest if not the earliest to bring up gematria in relation to biblical interpretation -- I wonder if some of the Gnostic practices he was exposing rubbed off on him a little? To his credit he did warn against using gematria and even he knew the text pertaining to the antichrist could not have been fulfilled in hindsight -- after-all the biblical text was given so we would not be deceived if we have the ears to hear it. In any case, as much as I admire Irenaeus he was and is not equal in authority to holy writ as I'm sure he would have been the first to admit.

The good news is we have the same formula John used in Revelation 13.17 repeated from Numbers 1.2 setting the precedent, and we see for a fact, not conjecture, that it had nothing to do with the practices of heathen nations, but refers to a common practice conducted by Moses and other leaders of Israel in the Tanakh of numbering the sons of Israel. God however will bring a curse on if the numbering is not authorized:

Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel. (1Ch 21.1 NAU)
God was displeased with this thing, so He struck Israel. (1Ch 21.7 NAU)

We also see curses on apostate Israel or Judah (Jerusalem) around the time the antichrist numbers and seals his people with his name (cf John 5.43) in his marriage covenant too. In fact God presents His people sealed with His own Name in His covenant to protect them from the impending curses and desolation from abominations in the lines adjacent to Revelation 13.16-8 providing a neat Hebraic antithetic parallelism to help us understand what's happening spiritually.

Of course this symmetry is destroyed and its "revelation" concealed if we adopt the unbiblical, gnostic, man-made tradition -- essentially Babylonian Mystery/Secret religious practice of gematria -- the exact opposite of the wisdom of revelation to the congregations and squarely in the lap of the hoodwinked harlot herself.


PS - I came across this paper today while sorting some files and think it helps here:

The use of notariqon and even gematria in rabbinic analysis of biblical texts was not invented by rabbis; these methods of text criticism, as noted above, were already used in Babylonian scribal schools long before rabbinic academies are attested. The use of numerical equivalents for names, which could be used instead of the name itself, is well known in Akkadian texts, and the use of notariqon often relied upon puns and word-plays between Akkadian and Sumerian. There is little doubt that these methods employed in Babylonian scribal schools were precursors of rabbinic exegesis, which developed into the typical types of exegesis known in Midrashim. What we do not know is the exact means whereby these ideas were transmitted from one school to another, or one curriculum to another, or exactly when these ideas proliferated to the extent that they influenced study methods within rabbinic academies.

Geller, Mark J - The Babylonian Background to Talmudic Science (European Association for Jewish Studies, Newsletter 6, 1999, pp 27-31)
"All that openeth the matrix is mine" -Exodus 34.19a
Reply
#7
Jesus, instructed His Apostle John to send what was revealed to Him by God to the seven churches in Asia, the names of which are all given in it. These churches with Christians in them were to read the revelation, and understand it. It was given to them as instruction and warning. They were told this.... "Here is wisdom; and in whom there is intelligence let them compute the number of the creature, for it is the number of a son of man; six hundred, and sixty, and six.
Reply
#8
(12-09-2017, 11:57 PM)Thirdwoe Wrote: Jesus, instructed His Apostle John to send what was revealed to Him by God to the seven churches in Asia, the names of which are all given in it. These churches with Christians in them were to read the revelation, and understand it. It was given to them as instruction and warning. They were told this.... "Here is wisdom; and in whom there is intelligence let them compute the number of the creature, for it is the number of a son of man; six hundred, and sixty, and six.

Short answer: That is correct, however that does nothing for the problem of gematria failing to be a Biblically-endorsed method of interpretation or practice nor against the solid biblical examples of census-taking John was referencing with language formula and context creating a Hebraic parallelism in the process.

Long answer: Being faithful to the scriptures would have shown the seven congregations that gematria is unbiblical, rather we find that it originates from heathen practices popular in Babylonian theology, which is being warned against in the same letter to the seven congregations no less. Those searching the scriptures, which Paul praises, in the seven congregations would have understood John was using the same language of numbering the sons of Israel used by Moses and Ezra — not ideas from magicians and witches and gnostics (oh my). The contexts of all three cases in scripture further clarify this. Thus, those in the seven congregations who searched the scriptures would not have been deceived into believing that the prophecies were being fulfilled in their time.

And, as with Paul’s letters addressed to various congregations and people, or Luke’s Gospel and Acts addressed to Theophilus, we see John’s Revelation along with all these have application beyond the original audiences and indeed were selected for canonization for future generations of the body as a whole to have until Yeshua returns. That’s why around the world we’re discussing and learning from all of these documents today, growing as a body for almost 2000 years. The spirit of the Word transcends space-time.

Peter addressed concerns of Yeshua’s delay when it was realized He was not returning in their day as they may have first thought (just as Yeshua indicated all along) in his second letter to the diaspora scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia (2Pe 1.1). Note the seven congregations addressed in Revelation are in Asia (Rev 1.11) who Peter includes in his address in both letters (2Pe 3.1), so there was overlap among audiences, their message wasn’t intended to be compartmentalized. In his second letter Peter addresses the timing of Yeshua’s return, hinting at the distant future:

But do not let this one [fact] escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2Pe 3.8-9 NAU)

Then he elaborates on what to expect when Yeshua does return:

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. (2Pe 3.10-13 NAU)

I hope every honest person realizes by now these things have not happened yet. This letter contains good instruction and teaching for everyone who wants the truth including up to today, not just for the congregations Peter was addressing by name back then, so we will not be deceived by false teachers and prophets, or as I said before, disinfo and counter-intelligence agents/trolls/spies posing as brethren, mimicking the language and sentiments of believers; spooks in cyberspace trying to fulfill the ‘Great Work’ of their Freemasonic temple in Jerusalem and force multiplying propaganda and deceptions through not only the old CIA-run media and entertainment, but now vast legions of sophisticated AI bots creating false consensuses and divisions and perception management on the WWWiretap setup by the Pentagon with DoD fronts and co-ops (Google, FB, IBM, Apple, the telecoms, big data, etc to name a few) building the global hivemind which occurs after the Singularity takes place transhumanists like Kurzweil have long promised, achieving immortality with godlike abilities they believe. The “Sophia” robot (a satanic perversions of Chokmah, Wisdom cf Proverbs 8 & 9) seems to be the chosen mother goddess in this Babylonian Gnostic-Qabbalist scheme for now, a nod to a new genesis (Gen 1.1 Jerusalem Targum: In wisdom (be-hukema) the Lord created).

Will the image/idol that receives life in Rev 13.15 from the false prophet (false Elijah) in the future temple with forced-worshipped at the threat of death be the global interface of this universal Oneness (echad) in the covenant marriage the antichrist will enforce? We will not be able to shrug this off forever and will have to reckon with it head on one day assuming we don’t expire within a few decades, maybe more maybe less. Or will some of us perish in a sacrifice to bring in the new global order with a world capital in Jerusalem as some believe Freemasonry founded America to have the destiny of the phoenix and on its ashes will rise this new system and universal religion in counterfeit fulfillment of Isaiah 56.7? I digress.

Now Paul also addressed false teachings, dirty tricks and heresies similar to the teachings found in modern Preterism; this again shows how the wisdom shared in the letters are of great benefit, beyond the original addressees, to study and answer questions that come up still today:

Now we beg you, my brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and concerning our own gathering to him, that you should not be quickly shaken in your minds, nor be troubled, not by word, nor by a spirit, nor by a letter, as though from us, [saying] namely, "Behold, the day of our Lord has arrived."

Will anyone deceive you in any way? Because [it will not come] except a rebellion {Gk apostasia} should come first and the man of sin should be revealed, the son of destruction, who is an opponent of [God] and elevates himself above all that is called God and that is reverenced, so that he will even sit in the temple of God as God and will portray himself as though he is God. Do you not remember that while I was with you I told you these things? And now, you know what holds back [this day] that he should be revealed in its time. For the mystery of wickedness has already begun to work, however, [it will work] by itself when that which now holds [it] back is taken away from the middle. And then the unjust [one] will be revealed, whom our Lord Jesus will consume by the breath of his mouth, and he will put a stop to him with the manifestation of his coming. (2Th 2:1-8 MGI, my note in braces {})

So Paul said Yeshua would not return until the antichrist,”the man of sin,” “the son of destruction,” sets himself up as God in the temple of God, which links up with what Daniel said and Yeshua himself said while referring to Daniel when speaking of these things in the Olivet discourse. Yeshua also revealed that His second coming, unlike the first, would be as openly displayed as the sun rising in the sky (Mat 24.27), in other words, unmistakable.

Since we know Yeshua’s return has not happened yet, we know the revealing of the false Messiah spoken of by John in Revelation (written after the temple was destroyed per Irenaeus, Clement of Alex., Victorinus, Eusebius, Jerome) and also by Paul in 2 Thessalonians has not happened yet either — because the two events are closely tied together.

Early Christian fathers like Polycarp, Ignatius and Irenaeus, etc, give no indication of Yeshua’s second coming having occurred or of the false Messiah having appeared and Irenaeus explicitly showed the fulfillment of the antichrist prophecies were in the future (“It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfillment of the prophecy,” Against Heresies 5.30.2), nevermind about a new heavens and earth ruled in righteousness, etc.

So in faithful keeping with the scriptures, regarding Revelation 13.17-8, we must affirm that gematria is a biblically unfounded and unwarranted practice. If some chose to embrace this foul practice anyways, not just in the absence of any examples or endorsements from the scriptures but also in the face of clear references (2) to a numbering of sons of Israel exemplified by Moses and Ezra and then God himself in Revelation 7.4-8 (cf Ezekiel 9.4), then it appears they cannot be convinced with biblically-sound arguments since their position does not stand on a biblical foundation at all but rather on the traditions of men. The vain traditions of men are what Yeshua and the Apostles contended with the most, from the Pharisees then Judaizers and also the Gnostics (now merged under Qabbalism found in so many mystery schools like Freemasonry), and this is the same foe empowered by Satan against the faith today and will be until Yeshua returns.
"All that openeth the matrix is mine" -Exodus 34.19a
Reply
#9
Where does the bible expressly prohibit counting letters, or searching into a word for numerical meaning?  

You know, dihydrogen monoxide has also been used by Babylonians, witches, freemasons, soldiers, and left-handed punks to harm people.  And yet, the bible does not expressly prohibit its use – why is that? Wink  Is it possible that gematria can also be used properly?  Proverbs 25:2 (“The glory of Alha, that which hides a word.  The glory of a king, that which searches a word.”)

Indeed, just because a learning technique was used by Babylonians does not make it automatically bad.  The Babylonians developed lots of useful things, including mathematical astronomy in Daniel’s time.  Granted, countless people have leavened astronomy toward astrology that leads astray, but the astronomical techniques themselves are useful and can lead toward understanding the orderly creation of Alha.  

Moreover, when you look at the origins of Greek and Babylonian practices, you can see major Semitic influences (such as the Greeks borrowing from the Semitic alphabet).  See e.g., Bernal, Martin. Cadmean Letters: The Transmission of the Alphabet to the Aegean and Further West before 1400 B.C. Winona Lake: Eisenbrauns, 1990.

There is evidence that throughout Mesopotamia, the Hebrews and others were using gematria (isopsephia) in the time of the apostles.  And if you think about it for a second, it actually makes sense, because people were already using letters daily to count numbers.  For example, if you wanted to annotate the number 666 in Hebrew, you could write literally: ܬܪܣܘ or ܣܳܣܘ.  See e.g., Kiraz, New Syriac Primer (2007), p. 229.

When you read ܬܪܣܘ in context, you would naturally need logic to discern whether it was being used as a number or a word.  Recall the Aramaic of Rev. 13:18, “Here having discernment, and of having in him logic ܢܚܫܒܝܘܗܝ (“he will count (plural) it”) to the number(s)/computation(s) of the living being, the number(s)/computation(s) she for of a son of man six hundred and sixty and six.” 

Notably, if someone in Israel at the time of the apostles was speaking verbally this number 666 to you, they would not say ܬܪܣܘ, but rather they would say ܫܬܡܐܐ ܘܫܬܝܢ ܘܫܝܬ  (“six hundred and sixty and six”).

ܬܪܣܘ is a word with dual contrast meanings: “to fight/challenge/oppose them” or “to nourish/shield/protect them”
ܣܳܣܘ is also a word with dual contrast meanings: “worms” or “vaults” (as in the vaults of the heavens).

I think 666 is like that.  It is the number of a son of man. The number is not automatically bad.  Like water or oil or a word, the real question is how it is being used.  

Aux, I liked what you shared about the census as an explanation for 666.  But how does a person need wisdom or logic to conduct a census?  What is the subtlety, or do you have any further insights on how wisdom & logic come into play with your biblical application to an end-of-the age census.  I do think you're on to something, especially to the extent that the 144,000 (who are marked by Alha between their eyes, for protection in Revelation 7) appear to be part of a 'census' as well.

Interesting topic.
Reply
#10
"we must affirm that gematria is a biblically unfounded and unwarranted practice." - Aux

No, we must not affirm what is your personal opinion, Aux. You can make up a rule for yourself if you like, but God has not made such a rule.

Six Hundred and Sixty and Six, is the number of his name. Not a census of a bunch of people.

It is the number of his name...

"That no one may buy or sell again except one who has the mark of the name of The Beast or the number of its name." Rev 13:17

Rev 13:18 "it is the number of a man" i.e. the number of his name. Note: not a number of men, as in a census of many people, but the number of a man, one man, and it is the number of his name.

"And the smoke of their torment ascends for the eternity of eternities, and there is no rest, day or night, for those who worship The Beast and its Image and for him who takes the mark of its name." Rev 14:11
Reply
#11
Quote:Where does the bible expressly prohibit counting letters, or searching into a word for numerical meaning?

Who said it expressly prohibits this?

Thankfully the bible doesn’t list every single practice of the heathen nations to avoid or the bible may never have been completed. It’s a general guide we can apply all the way up through Revelation to today. Some discernment is needed here (and everywhere, not just here).

The dark art activity of gematria indulged in today by witches, warlocks, magicians, gnostics, alchemists, satanists, masons, rosicrucians, 007 wannabes and other garden variety occultists are covered in general prohibitions and some are specifically named going back to the time of Moses and Jeremiah, so we’re thousands of years behind.

Thus says YHWH, “Do not learn the way of the nations, And do not be terrified by the signs of the heavens Although the nations are terrified by them; (Jer 10:2 NAU) (also Lev 18.1-5)

“When you enter the land which the LORD your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you.” (Deu 18.9-12 NAU)

Note that Moses did not expressly forbid the passing of other family members through the sacrificial fires, only sons and daughters. Now do you need an express prohibition for every family member to understand the spirit of the law? The general idea is to not learn theological practices of the heathens, or as John says later, mystery Babylon from whence we find gematria picked up by the Jewish rabbis there and systemized with other heathen concepts in the Qabbala picked up by masons and others in the list above.

So gematria is a heathen practice used in systems of divination and magic. John simplifies things by using an umbrella term (Mystery or Secret Babylon) to cover a system that included gematria popular in Babylon.

Using your logic: the bible doesn’t expressly prohibit using a system of biblical interpretation that says, “gematria is false, do not practice it.” Your ‘logic’ is antilogic and cancels itself out.


Quote:You know, dihydrogen monoxide has also been used by Babylonians, witches, freemasons, soldiers, and left-handed punks to harm people.  And yet, the bible does not expressly prohibit its use – why is that?   Is it possible that gematria can also be used properly?  Proverbs 25:2 (“The glory of Alha, that which hides a word.  The glory of a king, that which searches a word.”)

You’re comparing water to gematria? This isn’t clever and I don’t usually respond to troll comments but for others you might’ve succeeded in confusing: God gave water and many other things for the service of mankind, can they be abused by man? Of course. Can God use the elements to judge the world? Of course, this has happened since the fall. On the other hand God did not give us gematria, quite the contrary it is warned against, not by name but by a category or Babylonian system it belongs to.

A good or proper use of gematria is to have it as an example of what the bible warns against and can be used to help identify occultist quacks to be wary of, similar to how some like to use 666 in their name. Proverbs 25.2 doesn’t give any hint of gematria or relation to numbers, even if we assume the translation of the first dabar as “word.” Simple.


Quote:Indeed, just because a learning technique was used by Babylonians does not make it automatically bad.  The Babylonians developed lots of useful things, including mathematical astronomy in Daniel’s time.  Granted, countless people have leavened astronomy toward astrology that leads astray, but the astronomical techniques themselves are useful and can lead toward understanding the orderly creation of Alha.

Moreover, when you look at the origins of Greek and Babylonian practices, you can see major Semitic influences (such as the Greeks borrowing from the Semitic alphabet).  See e.g., Bernal, Martin. Cadmean Letters: The Transmission of the Alphabet to the Aegean and Further West before 1400 B.C. Winona Lake: Eisenbrauns, 1990.

Desperate strawman. No one denied cross-cultural influences or said ‘a learning technique’ used by Babylonians = bad. We’re not talking about learning techniques on how to sow linen. We’re not even talking about foreign information or practices in the bible, we’re talking about foreign interpretation of information in the bible. That’s doubly dangerous. The context we’re talking about here is biblically-sound hermeneutics.

Whether or not the Babylonians themselves developed all the things they are credited with or if they simply inherited much of it from more ancient times is debatable. Josephus credits the Sethites with mastering astronomy and it appears from the bible Abraham and the Chaldeans inherited such knowledge perhaps from Enoch through Noah per DSS. Genesis 1.14 credits God with creating the star signs and some constellations are named in the Tanakh. Thankfully the bible contains the timeless wisdom of God for His people to have and discern what is beneficial to use and what to avoid, separating the wheat from the chaff. Satan wants everything mixed up and confused, Satan sows tares among the wheat.


Quote:There is evidence that throughout Mesopotamia, the Hebrews and others were using gematria (isopsephia) in the time of the apostles. 

Good let’s see the evidence. This should not surprise us and may be a case of the exception proving the rule if legit. What I am surprised at is the dearth of information on its use for biblical interpretation until well after biblical times and how so many people blindly swallow it as legitimate biblical hermeneutics anyways. That should give every honest person serious pause.


Quote:And if you think about it for a second, it actually makes sense, because people were already using letters daily to count numbers. For example, if you wanted to annotate the number 666 in Hebrew, you could write literally: ܬܪܣܘ or ܣܳܣܘ.  See e.g., Kiraz, New Syriac Primer (2007), p. 229.


I have thought about the relation between Hebrew letters and their numeric values, a lot, and there is nothing that necessitates gematria especially not for biblical interpretation when it’s never endorsed in any way but rather warned against. It’s like evolution, you have to imagine it’s legit because there’s no actual legit examples (hence the endless artist depictions and speculations).


Quote:When you read ܬܪܣܘ in context, you would naturally need logic to discern whether it was being used as a number or a word.  Recall the Aramaic of Rev. 13:18, “Here having discernment, and of having in him logic ܢܚܫܒܝܘܗܝ (“he will count (plural) it”) to the number(s)/computation(s) of the living being, the number(s)/computation(s) she for of a son of man six hundred and sixty and six.”
 

When you read it in context with the surrounding verses with a look at Rev 7.4-8 and various OT passages, John is actually giving giant foolproof clues about what he’s talking about when he selects the same plain language of a census not once but twice from Moses and Ezra right along side the census number of the 144,000 faithful not to mention how Ezra’s census even includes a man with 666 male descendants which had NOTHING to do with the numeric value of his name. If people don’t see how obvious this is, they simply don’t want to see it. Funny how the same denialists will then turn around to embrace something which has zero evidence of being a biblical practice and is actually warned against as part of the Babylonian mystery theology by John in the same letter. Some people just can’t let go or admit they swallowed poison and refuse to vomit it out so remain ill.

Quote:Notably, if someone in Israel at the time of the apostles was speaking verbally this number 666 to you, they would not say ܬܪܣܘ, but rather they would say ܫܬܡܐܐ ܘܫܬܝܢ ܘܫܝܬ  (“six hundred and sixty and six”).


Right but that’s not gematria nor does it necessitate gematria.


Quote:ܬܪܣܘ is a word with dual contrast meanings: “to fight/challenge/oppose them” or “to nourish/shield/protect them”
ܣܳܣܘ is also a word with dual contrast meanings: “worms” or “vaults” (as in the vaults of the heavens).

I think 666 is like that.  It is the number of a son of man. The number is not automatically bad.  Like water or oil or a word, the real question is how it is being used.  


Good thing we don’t need to make stuff up and undermine the sense since we have the scriptures to show us what John was talking about using pretty straightforward language so we don’t have to speculate or read tea leaves or check the Ouija board and the 8-ball. Maybe I shouldn’t give ideas, after all the bible doesn’t expressly tell us not to use ouija boards.


Quote:Aux, I liked what you shared about the census as an explanation for 666.  But how does a person need wisdom or logic to conduct a census?  What is the subtlety, or do you have any further insights on how wisdom & logic come into play with your biblical application to an end-of-the age census.  I do think you're on to something, especially to the extent that the 144,000 (who are marked by Alha between their eyes, for protection in Revelation 7) appear to be part of a 'census' as well.

You demonstrate again you don’t know the scriptures you wish to teach on. If you spent more time familiarizing yourself with the bible for what it says rather than looking for loopholes then you would already understand and not need to ask. The question itself illustrates the lack of wisdom in which case you should talk less and listen more. I already gave the answer to your question before you asked it in may last post citing Proverbs 8 & 9, an aid to those who search the scriptures to understand what John is revealing here, but so few listen to Wisdom.

Does not wisdom call, And understanding lift up her voice? (Pro 8.1 NAU)

The “secret” and “mystery” Babylonian occult system of wresting “secret wisdom” from numeric values and permutations thereof requiring man’s ingenuity is the exact OPPOSITE of the straightforward open spirit of Wisdom John was calling attention to:

"All the utterances of my mouth are in righteousness; There is nothing crooked or perverted in them.
"They are all straightforward to him who understands, And right to those who find knowledge. (Pro 8.8-9 NAU)

The meaning is as plain as the text but not, say, in the grubby hands of a benighted occultist Crowley-trolley.

As I said before, John was very plain and fool-proofing this “revelation” with his language and references and it has nothing, nothing to do with having a high IQ mastermind super genius deciphering mumbo jumbo, that none may boast. But if you do not humble yourself as a child and hear the word of Wisdom and receive her knowledge freely, not under cursed oaths in secret rites in dark chambers or coffins, then you will not understand and stay in darkness and blind no matter how many all-seeing eyes you surround yourself with, there is no light in you. From darkness to darkness.

So what religion are you anyways?
"All that openeth the matrix is mine" -Exodus 34.19a
Reply
#12
Quote:"we must affirm that gematria is a biblically unfounded and unwarranted practice." - Aux

No, we must not affirm what is your personal opinion, Aux. You can make up a rule for yourself if you like, but God has not made such a rule.

If you have evidence that gematria is founded upon the bible than show your homework, until then all the facts point to one thing: gematria is a biblically unfounded and an unwarranted practice, and if we want to be honest with ourselves and faithful to scriptures then yes we SHOULD affirm this fact -- or perhaps that's not what you want. If you have a problem with that then it's your problem not mine.

Your statement on the other hand is indeed a baseless opinion just like gematria is biblically baseless, you go together well.

"In the Bible itself there is no reference to numerical gemaṭria, or the symbolical use of numbers, and their existence can not be positively demonstrated."
--Schechter, Solomon; Levias, Casper - GEMAṬRIA. (JewishEncyclopedia.com)

"The use of notariqon and even gematria in rabbinic analysis of biblical texts was not invented by rabbis; these methods of text criticism, as noted above, were already used in Babylonian scribal schools long before rabbinic academies are attested."
--Geller, Mark J - The Babylonian Background to Talmudic Science (European Association for Jewish Studies, Newsletter 6, 1999, pp 27-31)

Quote:Six Hundred and Sixty and Six, is the number of his name. Not a census of a bunch of people.

It is the number of his name...

Not interested in your baseless, unlearned, unbiblical opinions.

So again, for those who are a little slow, here's what the biblical text shows:

Make ye the sum [רֹאשׁ lit. head] of all the congregation of the children [sons] of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of their names [שֵׁמ֔וֹת lit. names. LXX [i]ὀνόματος lit. names], every male by their poll [/i](Numbers 1.2 KJV)

And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name [ὀνόματος lit. name]. (Revelation 13.17 KJV)

Re-read the above scriptures as much as you like until it finally clicks: Moses was told by God in Numbers 1.2 to count the sons of Israeli families listed under the tribal patriarchs by the "NUMBER OF THEIR NAMES" as you might count names in a list during a census because that's what he was doing. Wow, that's the same phrase John uses in Revelation 13.17 with matching contexts clarified in 14.1 (cf 7.4-8). But nope let's just ignore that and turn to Babylonian witchcraft warned of in the same letter by John! Yeah!!


Quote:"That no one may buy or sell again except one who has the mark of the name of The Beast or the number of its name." Rev 13:17

Rev 13:18 "it is the number of a man" i.e. the number of his name. Note: not a number of men, as in a census of many people, but the number of a man, one man, and it is the number of his name.

Note: It's one name in Rev 13.18 because, get ready, because there's ONE MAN being discussed! Mind blown?

Ezra 2 shows the "men" referred to in "the number of the men" are the heads of families, that's why you have "The children of Adonikam, 666" (Ezra 2.13). They're not going to write out all 666 names, so 666 is the number of (sons of) the name of Adonikam, likewise the number of the name of the beast 666 is the number of his sons, the number of his name. You couldn't ask John to give a better example. Nehemiah even gives another account inclusive of Adonakim coming to 667 in Neh 7.18!

Context? Proof text? Cross references? who needs all that? We got Babylonian magick baby!! yeah!!


Quote:"And the smoke of their torment ascends for the eternity of eternities, and there is no rest, day or night, for those who worship The Beast and its Image and for him who takes the mark of its name." Rev 14:11

If you're already having this much trouble receiving the census reference as clear as that link is (both links from Moses and Ezra) than there's not much hope getting this part about receiving the Name in the Sinai covenant marriage which the false messiah renews or enforces (as expected by rabbis) with apostate Israel (Judah, Jerusalem) and this is paralleled in the proceeding verse in 14.1 where we see the census count of the 144,000 faithful bride of the lamb receive the Father's Name (one with the Son) sealed in their forehead. I touch on this also in the first post and also the buying and selling in the temple.

"we must affirm that gematria is a biblically unfounded and unwarranted practice." - Aux
"All that openeth the matrix is mine" -Exodus 34.19a
Reply
#13
"we must affirm that gematria is a biblically unfounded and unwarranted practice." - Aux

No, we must not affirm your personal opinion. You are free to believe anything you like about it, though.
Reply
#14
Aux, lol??  How are you so confident that all of gematria is Babylonian harlotry?  Here is an example of gematria in action (to assist the study of Genesis 14:14):

Quote:BIBLICAL Horizons, No. 133
September, 2000
by James B. Jordan

Genesis 14:14 says that Abram mustered his trained men, “born in his house,” to rescue Lot, and gives their number as 318. It is clear that the precise number is provided for some reason, but what is it?

S. Gevirtz notes that 318 is the sum of all the prime numbers between 7 and 72, to wit: 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, & 47. [“Abram’s 318,” Israel Exploration Journal 19 (1969):110-113.] There are twelve primes in this set. Certainly, then, 318 is an interesting number, incorporating both 7 and 12. While this is true, it is not clear what it might have to do with the events in question.

The traditional rabbinic explanation is that 318 is the numerical value of the name of Abram’s chief servant, Eliezer (א = 1; ל = 30; י = 10; ע = 70; ז = 7; ר = 200). Gevirtz and others question this traditional explanation for two reasons. First, they say that there is no evidence for the use of gematria (see previous article) among the Jews prior to the Hellenistic period. To this we must reply that there is no evidence against it either. The fact is that just about the only Hebrew literature we have available to consult is the Old Testament. If we have a case of gematria here in Genesis 14, then that is evidence that it was employed from early times.

...

Eliezer is Abram’s official son and heir, provided Abram never begets any children from his own loins. As such, Eliezer is clearly preeminent among all the other “homeborn sons” in Abram’s sheikhdom.

And this takes us back to Genesis 14:14. The 318 fighting men were all such adopted sons, “born in the house.” Eliezer was their captain. Thus, we have a clear link between the name Eliezer and the number 318 in this story.
Of course, this does not answer every question we have. It is interesting that the text tells us that 318 men went forth to rescue Lot, and that 318 is the number of the name of the lieutenant of this host. But why? Is this merely a curiosity?

I think that the explanation lies in the overall theology of Genesis. Repeatedly we are shown a younger son replacing an older son, as the second Adam must replace the first. The salvation of the older son is linked to the younger son: Joseph must save his older brothers; Esau’s salvation, if he wants it, is linked to Jacob.

In Genesis 13, Lot separated from Abram and moved into gentile territory, becoming part of the gentiles. Up until this point, Lot was Abram’s nearest relative, and thus his “son” and heir. Lot, thus, is like the older son who falls into sin. Now the younger son, Eliezer, comes with the father to rescue the wayward older son.

Practically speaking, neither Eliezer by himself, nor he and Abram alone, could have rescued Lot from Chedorlaomer’s army. They needed a company of men. But since the “homeborn” men numbered 318, and this links to Eliezer, captain of the “homeborn” men, the writer of Genesis wants us to make this connection. To use language closer to the New Testament: The father and his son, with the son’s church-people, ride forth to rescue the lost sheep.

In conclusion: It seems that for whatever reason, Abram took 318 men to rescue Lot. This may have been all the men he had, or all that were available. Or he may have had some other reason for taking this many. As it turns out, this number is the number of the name of Eliezer, captain of this host, and Abram’s son and heir. This coincidence happens in God’s providence, and is recorded for us so that we see once again the younger son moving out to rescue the wayward older son.

http://www.biblicalhorizons.com/biblical...s-318-men/

What specifically about the above article would lead a student astray into "the lap of the hoodwinked harlot herself" as you wrote?  Isn't gematria just reinforcing with numbers a connection already made by words?  Is it possible gematria could have been encoded in places by ܐܠܗܐ to show words and numbers in harmony for some greater purpose?

A Mishnaic textual source states that the use of Jewish Gematria is dated to at least the Tannaic period (10-220 A.D.), “The calculation of the equinoxes and gematriot are the desserts of wisdom.” 

Interesting that around the time of the apostles in Israel gematria was explicitly associated with wisdom.  See also:
Quote:Greek letters came into official use as numbers in the third to second centuries B.C.E., although the system of correspondences was invented earlier. By the time of the first two centuries of the Common Era gematria using the Greek alphabet was being practiced in a variety of ways.  "I love her whose number is 545," is one of several examples found scribbled as graffiti on the walls of Pompeii.

...

C. Levias, writing in The Jewish Encyclopedia, argues that the existence of atbash, the permutative cyphering of letters, in Jeremiah makes it likely that gematria also exists in OT scripture, and cites Gen 14:14, Deut 31:1-6, and Ezek 5:2 as probable examples. A. G. Wright has suggested that examples of gematria can be found in the Book of Qoheleth (c. 250 B.C.E.) and P. W. Skehan has identified possible instances in Proverbs (c. 600 B.C.E.).
 
Skehan's reply to those who argue for a later assignment of numerical values to the Hebrew letters is illuminating: "...which is more likely: that the Greeks established this system for their borrowed alphabet by the 6th century B.C. (when digamma, or waw, and qoppa, or qoph, ceased to be functional for them except as the numbers 6 and 90), and then handed back their little invention to their Semitic neighbors at least three centuries later; or that they found the Semitic alphabet, including waw and qoph, already being used in this way when they borrowed it about 800 B.C.?"

I don’t know man, it seems like a reasonable thing for students to consider that our Father writes meaning in letters and numbers, shapes, emotions, stars, and so much more.  So I would probably encourage you to reconsider your position that you wrote, “the unbiblical, gnostic, man-made tradition -- essentially Babylonian Mystery/Secret religious practice of gematria -- the exact opposite of the wisdom of revelation to the congregations and squarely in the lap of the hoodwinked harlot herself.”

With that said, I’m listening to what you’re sharing, and I read Numbers 1:2, though I do still have questions about the application of Numbers 1:2 to Revelation 13:18.  You know, I might recommend more gentleness in your approach to sharing your opinions here on the forum.  It usually doesn’t bear fruit to call other Christians foolish for trying to learn about an interpretive text in a way that might not jive 100% with your interpretation of that interpretive text.  There are a lot of numbers in Revelation, and spiritual layers, and people are at different places in their studies.  It may even be that there is more than one answer to the 666 question?

As an aside, I wasn’t trying to say gematria is like water, but rather gospel words are like water.  I’m glad for this opportunity to clarify -- both gospel and water are created by ܐܠܗܐ inside of something physical (water inside earth; gospel inside man). Many of the techniques to use/filter gospel words, and to use water, are implemented by man.  Gematria is an example: a man-made technique to use or shape gospel words, just like plumbing is a man-made technique to use or shape water.  Even Babylonian plumbing itself is not necessarily bad, nor has gematria been proven automatically bad, even though both plumbing and gematria both historically & currently are involved in carrying some gnarly stuff around.

Regarding “wisdom” in Revelation 13:18, a precedent is found in Revelation 17:9, because it uses similar language: “Here is logic to him having wisdom: seven heads are seven mountains where she sat, the woman upon them.”
Applying that precedent to your theory: does counting heads from 1 to 666 require logic or wisdom?  That was my question. I would think wisdom and logic are found in the understanding (a) who to count and (b) what the 666 number represents spiritually, just like how in Revelation 17:9 the 7 heads (spiritually) represented 7 mountains (spiritually) that in turn represented 7 sovereigns (physically).  Somehow spiritual discernment is required to see what this number of a son of man, 666, actually represents: who & what.

My current thinking is that 6 is the number of man because, for example, Adam was created “sovereign” on day 6, per Genesis 1:26.  And then 6 grows exponentially as sovereign man expands in grandeur, as we see for example with the sovereign Nebuchadnezer’s 60 x 6 cubit golden statue of himself. Daniel 3:1.  At the end of the age, I think we can expect to see six (sovereign man) plus sixty (something like Nebuchadnezzar’s golden statue) plus six hundred (something artificial, probably computer-based?).  Another key reference from the Old Testament is that in 2 Chronicles 9:13, the sovereign Solomon collected 666 talents of gold through taxes, tributes, and so forth.

In summary, I think three important clues to discerning 666 are: (1) sovereign man growing exponentially, (2) sovereignty growing in a direction from natural to artificial, (3) something about money (really, tribute).

And now you have also added another clue: census.  Good for you. What is a census?  It is counting heads for a purpose, often by a sovereign for purposes of military or taxation.  And as you highlighted with examples like 1 Chronicles 21:1 (Satan inspires David to conduct a census of soldiers), sometimes ܡܪܝܐ does not like the purpose of a census. 

There is also a new testament precedent: the head tax paid with Caesar’s coin.  Perhaps that could be another way a census relates to money & taxation, as we recall Rev 13:17, “no person will buy/exchange or sell/exchange again unless he/she has upon him/her the mark of the name of the living being or the number of her/its name.”

If we identified the beast (notably, the Aramaic grammar in the Crawford Codex suggests the beast is feminine), how would a researcher use a census to identify the number of her/its name?  Would the researcher count 666 of her/its relatives?  Seems like that research could require quite a laborious and inexact genealogy, rather than what you originally proposed in your post, “straightforward open spirit of Wisdom”.  The bible has never described a census as wisdom or logic (not even in Numbers 2:1), so I would respectfully venture that what you’ve found in your research above is a clue toward an answer rather than the answer itself.  Or am I missing something?

As for how gematria informs Revelation 13, if at all, that’s just an open question. As Chuck said, you can think whatever you want dude.  I might just recommend that before you bash people and all of gematria, maybe try asking some simple questions with little steps.  First, is it okay to recognize that ܐ (“aleph”) is the first letter and can be associated with the number 1?  Yes, okay then… is it okay to recognize that ܐ (“aleph”) plus ܒ (“bet”) equals three?  Yes, okay then… is it okay to recognize the numerical value of names and words, like how the name ܝܫܘܥ (“Yahshua”) equals 53  (53 =  10 + 21 + 6 + 16 = ܝ +  ܫ + ܘ + ܥ )  and the word ܡܫܝܚܐ  (“Messiah”) also equals 53.  If so, it feels like that type of counting (gematria), in the right context, can contribute toward a person’s appreciation for Yahshua as the Messiah. 

You know, one of the key lessons of the Messiah coming to Earth as a human: he took our perspective.  He spoke the language of the Jewish people, and talked about the things that were relevant to a man’s daily life, such as farming, following the law, what to do about Romans, should we pay taxes.  If gematria was part of some people’s perspectives, just like astronomy was part of people’s perspectives, you can expect these things to align in the right context to give glory to ܐܠܗܐ

Granted, just like water, some words of the gospel will be misused and misinterpreted by men’s hearts gone astray. But the original water itself is from ܐܠܗܐ.  We are all currently using and shaping water in unique ways.  Please be patient with other students.

After the number six comes the number seven, which is the letter ܙ (“zayin”).  I like to imagine this letter & number is associated with the Messiah and His city Zion.  A city is ultimately a network of interconnected people.  If we are experiencing the age of the number ‘six’ right now, imagine the lessons His children can learn in the future experiencing fellowship in Zion.
Reply
#15
Aux....There is nothing at all magic or mysterious about gematria. It is just letters and numbers. In the language that was used to write the Book of Revelation, a name or a title has a number count. No hokus pokus there, God was just telling them that the number count of the evil beast's name/title adds up to Six Hundred, Sixty, and Six. And they would have done just that.... Counted the number of his name/title.

Hey, I have an idea, why don't you two write a book together. Smile
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)