Revelation 6:15 - BSWA part 6

[drmlanc]

6. Those who are strong or who have power? ??? Revelation 6:15

Note: That strong and powerful are very similar words is not the point, as similar words do not detract from the power of a split word. The point is that once again, two different readings from Greek mss, can be traced to one word in the Aramaic.

The DARBY says: ???And the kings of the earth, and the great, and the chiliarchs, and the rich, and the strong, and every bondman and freeman, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains;???

The NLT says: ???Then the kings of the earth, the rulers, the generals, the wealthy people, the people with great power, and every slave and every free person--all hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains.???

Versions that say strong or a variation thereof: ALT, AMP, ASV, BBE, DARBY, Douay-Rheims, MSG, NASB, RSV, WE, WYC.

Versions that say power or a variation thereof: CEV, ESV, GodsWord, Holman, ISV, LITV, NLT, TEV, Weymouth.

Now, it just so happens that the Aramaic word ???w'Khaylowtha??? can be translated as ???strong??? and ???powerful???, two different words in the Greek mss.

???Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus and the Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus use the word 'dunatoi' in Revelation 6:15 which George Ricker Berry in his Greek-English Interlinear New Testament translates as 'powerful. The Byzantine Majority text and the Alexandrian text use a word that doesn't look OR sound anything like 'dunatoi.' These two texts use the word 'ischuroi which George Berry translates as 'strong' in his footnotes.

We caught Zorba red-handed! The corresponding word "w'Khaylowtha" in the Syriac Peshitto reveals how he came up with two words that are totally different in written form AND vocalization. Here are the entries from the Syriac Electronic Data Retrieval Archive (SEDRA) and the Comprehensive Aramaic Lexicon.

Word Number: 7039
Pronunciation: (Eastern) OKHaYLaOaT,aA (Western) OKHaYLaOoT,oA
Meaning:: mighty work, force, strength, power, virtue

xyl N xyl)
1 EarlyImpAr,JLATg,JBA army
2 ImpArEg military unit/garrison
3 passim power, force
4 JLAGal,Syr metaph: strength, essence
5 JLAGal multitude
6 Syr miracle
xyl#2 N xyl)
1 Syr cry for help
2 Syr help
xyl#3 N xyl)
1 Syr name of plant
xyl V
021 Syr to corroborate
022 JLATg,JBA to strengthen
051 Syr to be strong
052 JLATg,CPA,Sam,Syr to be made strong
053 Syr to recover strength
054 Syr to contend
055 Syr to carry on war
056 Syr to carry on sacred military service

The Greek editions that have 'ischuroi'-(strong) as opposed to 'dunatoi'-(powerful) are as follows:
Griesbach 1805, Lachmann 1842, Tischendorf 1869,
Tregelles 1857, Alford 1849 as revised in 1871,
Wordsworth 1856 as revised in 1870, Westcott & Hort 1881, Collation in progress of Nestle 1927 as revised in 1941 (17th), Nestle-Aland 1979 (Aland et al. 1979), Hodges & Farstad 1982 as corrected in 1985.??? - Larry Kelsey

Acknowledgements: Thanks again to Larry Kelsey, for yet another split word.

There was no clear winner here, between the Alexandrian and ???Byzantine??? texts, as there were crossovers (one or both families having both renditions) and ???strong??? and powerful??? are both acceptable translations. The score is still tied at 2-2.

Note: You may have noticed that the people I quote may often refer to ???Zorba???. This is the name given to the people who translated the Aramaic into Greek, as it is more convenient to say than ???the original translators of the Aramaic New Testament into Greek???.

[Zechariah14]

???Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus and the Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus use the word 'dunatoi' in Revelation 6:15 which George Ricker Berry in his Greek-English Interlinear New Testament translates as 'powerful. The Byzantine Majority text and the Alexandrian text use a word that doesn't look OR sound anything like 'dunatoi.' These two texts use the word 'ischuroi which George Berry translates as 'strong' in his footnotes.

I posted some of your research in another forum (<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.studylight.org">http://www.studylight.org</a><!-- m -->) and here was the response.

Rev 6:15. My copy of Christopher Wordsworth's 1882 commentary on the Revelation has ischuroi and does not even suggest an alternative in his commentary. This is odd because Wordsworth's commentary is based on Scriveners text, and the Greek text which Wordsworth is expounding here clearly has ischuroi. Where did he get it from if not Scrivener? Scrivener's collation of the Stephen's text with the Sinaiticus shows that the Sinaiticus has ischuroi so Scrivener clearly knew that ischuroi was the correct word. 'Stephens' and 'Scrivener', of course are not manuscript evidence but are editorial works producing a base text for translation. I have a lot of respect for Scrivener's text which is my default Greek text, so I find your reference to his use of dunatoi very odd. I will try to pursue it. However no manuscript of weight has dunatoi, so dunatoi was never part of the original text. Stephen's Greek text of 1550 certainly had dunatoi, but as far as I can see no editor since has had anything other than ischuroi. Griesbach, Lachman, Tischendorf, Tregelles, Alford, Wordsworth (Scrivener associate), Nestle all have ischuroi.

The original Erasmus edited text for Revelation was based on a single manuscript that was torn, holed and had the last 6 verses missing. Erasmus filled in the gaps by borrowing from the Latin Vulgate which he translated back into Greek and inserted into the text. Stephens had only two manuscripts from which he created a text for Revelation, and these two manuscripts had never been collated (compared side by side) The work of Stephens was the basis for Bezae's work which culminated in the the Elzever edition usually called the Textus Receptus.

The point of all this detail is that The KJV translation of the Revelation does not rest upon the same sound foundation of manuscript authority as does the rest of the New Testament. It stands in a place by itself, and ought to be regarded accordingly. The word, I have no doubt was ischuroi. In the manuscript evidence that I can avail myself of, no manuscripts have ischuroi. The critical apparatus of my Nestle Greek New Testament has no alternative to ischuroi, which means there are no known manuscripts of any weight which have anything other than ischuroi. The verse has no critical notation; it is universally accepted as ischuroi. Stephens clearly had a rogue manuscript from which he took the word dunatoi.

While touching on the book of Revelation I include a quotation from Christopher Wordsworth (one of the greatest English bible scholars of the 19th Century and a brilliant Greek scholar)

"The diction of the Book of Revelation is more Hebraistic than that of any other portion of the New Testament. It adopts Hebrew Idioms and Hebrew Words. It studiously disregards the laws of Gentile syntax, and courts anomalies and solecisms; it christianizes Hebrew words and sentiments, and clothes them in evangelical dress, and consecrates them to Christ.

Some critics have been led by these condsiderations to imagine that the Apolcalypse was originally written in Hebrew. But such a theory is inconsistent with the character of those to whom it was originally addressed, the Churches of Asia, and with many internal phenomena eg the name of the Beast noted in Greek letters [13:18]"

In short, I'm afraid your Rev 6:15 is a red herring. It is just an oddity of Stephen's compiled text, the word clearly was only ever ischuroi.

Ah, I have it now. I think you are referring to Scrivener's attempt to recreate the Greek Text behind the Authorised Version. So in quoting both Stephens and Scrivener as editors we are going around in a circle.

Any comments here?

Zechariah14

[drmlanc]

"Stephen's Greek text of 1550 certainly had dunatoi, but as far as I can see no editor since has had anything other than ischuroi. Griesbach, Lachman, Tischendorf, Tregelles, Alford, Wordsworth (Scrivener associate), Nestle all have ischuroi.
"

I think he just answered his own question...

btw if you want to convinve such people of Aramaic primacy, try throwing agape/phileo at them (another synonym split word). This is good because the Western is seen by man as the earliest Greek and is different from all other Greek <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s --> Also show them "Why have you forsaken me" and "lead us not into temptation" as they really tend to either make believers or piss them off. A JW got so offended when I talked about the temptation one and how Satan, not God is the tempter...

[Zechariah14]

"Stephen's Greek text of 1550 certainly had dunatoi, but as far as I can see no editor since has had anything other than ischuroi. Griesbach, Lachman, Tischendorf, Tregelles, Alford, Wordsworth (Scrivener associate), Nestle all have ischuroi.
"

I think he just answered his own question...

btw if you want to convinve such people of Aramaic primacy, try throwing agape/phileo at them (another synonym split word). This is good because the Western is seen by man as the earliest Greek and is different from all other Greek <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s --> Also show them "Why have you forsaken me" and "lead us not into temptation" as they really tend to either make believers or piss them off. A JW got so offended when I talked about the temptation one and how Satan, not God is the tempter...

We've discussed agage/phileo, and I didn't bring up the "split word" angle because it doesn't look that supports Aramaic primacy at all. Frankly, if the original were Aramaic, I would expect about half the Greek documents to say phileo for a passage, and about half to say agape for the same passage. But, we really don't see that. There is one instance, it looks like, from Codex Bezae, but that manuscript is held in extremely low esteem by Greek primacists.

Zechariah14

[drmlanc]

It's possible. Problem is, Code Bezae is seen by many as the "original Greek", so the vast majority of Greek texts would have the error... And there are many more examples where byz and alex disagree, of course this is more impact than agape/phileo. When two entire families of Greek mss disagree and it can be solved by Peshitta which is believed by so many to be the original, I think that's worth a little something hey <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s -->

[Zechariah14]

It does seem that many of Irenaus' quotations line up with Codex Bezae.