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Second coming of Yeshua Meshikha
#46
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Quote:In the NT there seems to be an expectation that the "return" is about to happen,

They didn't know when it would happen, Judge, because they were never told by God...but, just like today, they expected it to be soon and even perhaps believed that it would take place during their lifetime. But it didn't.

And it hasn't happened yet.

There were even some going around during the Apostle Paul's ministry days, saying that it had already taken place at that time...but Paul said, not to believe it and said if someone says He is back, not to go looking for Him, because EVERYONE will know, when it happens. It's not going to be a secret thing...it's going to end the world as we know it.

The fact is...The Resurrection did not take place in 70 A.D., or the Harvest of the Field, when ALL the peoples of the Nations are judged on The Last Day.

The Last Day is The Last Day...not almost 2,000 years before The Last Day...if the Return of Christ takes place today...

Or do you say that The Last Day and The Resurrection of the dead, both wicked and righteous, took place in 70 A.D.?

There was never a teaching at any time, by The Church, that said Christ's Return was in 70 A.D.

Show me.

True...the prophesied judgment did come upon Israel and Jerusalem in particular, that Christ foretold, but that is a separate event...and a "coming" of judgment upon that generation, which many prophecies foretold. But there are many other prophecies that were not fulfilled at that time, they relate to Christ's Return to this Earth at the end of time, on The Last Day, not in 70 A.D.

The Scriptures, The teaching of The Church, and The Creed are all correct on this matter.


Shlama,
Chuck
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#47
Chuck: Thanks for the response and questions. Here are a few of my thoughts. I am not a theologian or Bible scholar. I bow to superior wisdom and insight.
Regarding Psalms 68 I believe it is a ?psalm of procession? recounting the history of God?s workings with Israel from Sinai through to His enthronement in Jerusalem. Part of this psalm focuses on Mount Zion and the ascension specifically in verse 18. It was normal in ancient times for kings who staged elaborate victory processions to parade their conquered foes in chains as part of that process to exalt over/humiliate the opposition etc.
I happen to believe that Israel as a nation plays out a role that parallels a heavenly theme. Mashiach is identified so often with them, intertwined so to speak. Thus in Hosea chapter eleven, for example, the call out of Egypt clearly applies to Israel my son. We know from Matthew 2:15 that this verse applies to Yeshua as well. There are lots of other examples with which you are no doubt very familiar.
The parallel to the procession ascending to Mount Zion in Psalms 68 is Yeshua ascending to heaven. According to Paul in Ephesians 4:8 this represents both the triumph of the Resurrection but also the utter humiliation of His foes who are figuratively ?bound in chains? as part of the procession. I suppose the foes are death, sin etc. The divine king in Psalms 68 goes on to give gifts among men. These Paul connects with God?s providence to the Church. It is noteworthy that Paul only quotes half of the verse in Psalms 68:18. The last portion indicates ? ?that the LORD (YHWH) God may dwell there?. Then keep reading into verse 19? ?The God who is our Yeshuah (salvation)? Wow. Sounds a lot like Revelation 21 and 22, those majestic chapters concluding the last book of the Bible, and yet to come. Maranatha!
I don?t see how ?captivity? necessarily involves setting captives free in Psalms 68:18 nor in Ephesians 4. The processional brings ?foes in chains? as the captives, not dead saints in my opinion. Others may disagree.
On to Acts 1:9. Not sure what specific viewpoint you have in mind. I think the verse simply says at face value that Yeshua was taken up into the clouds. Help me with richer insights.
For Hebrews 12:1 many Christians use this verse with its reference to ?witnesses? to support a theology that at death believers? souls go directly to heaven, where they enjoy the benefits of fellowship with other departed ones, worship God, walk the streets of gold etc. They also claim that these individuals are also aware of events and developments on earth and can ?cheer on? believers down here. The Roman Catholic church has a well developed ?understanding? of how this all occurs, with saints interceding for us, etc. To me the word witness would be better translated as ?testifier?. We have just concluded an entire chapter eleven in Hebrews reviewing the faith of these earlier martyrs. They serve as role models and examples, not personal coaches.
These are my own thoughts. I have no idea if the Churches of the East subscribe to the doctrine of the conscious existence of departed believers. I must say that the last two Christian funerals I attended had numerous references to the freedom and enjoyment that the recently departed now possessed?that they were encouraging (not simply that their lives were an encouragement). Yet Paul in 1 Thessalonians specifically and repeatedly refers to the departed as ?asleep? and that we look forward to the physical resurrection yet in the future. He even says we are expected to encourage one another with these words?.of certain HOPE. I ask why anyone would want to be resurrected with a body on earth when they are already enjoying heaven so much!! The Hebrew understanding (and I believe Paul?s) is that the resurrection is still future.
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#48
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HSB,

Interesting statements about Psalm 68 and Ephesians 4:8... I'll do some pondering on that. Thanks for sharing that.

As to Yeshua and Israel as a Nation, being equated with each other in numerours passages in the Scriptures...it is because "in the volume of the Book", it speaks of Him. These are Prophetic foretellings, of the life and minitry of Christ, being hidden to the natural understanding of man. Yeshua IS Israel, and so are all those who are part of His Body. The True Israel of God. He is The Seed of Abraham, who came through Sarah, and The Seed of Eve who came through Seth. ALL the Promises are IN Him and unto His People, The Church.

Heb 12:22-24 (Bauscher's version) "But you have come to The Mountain of Zion and to The City of THE LIVING GOD, to The Jerusalem which is in Heaven, and to the assembly of myriads of Angels; And to the church of the firstborn ones who are written in Heaven, and to God The Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous who are made perfect, And to Yeshua, The Mediator of The New Covenant, and to the sprinkling of blood, which speaks better than that of Abel."

And do a study on the passages that speak of Christ being "recieved by a cloud" at His asscension, and returning "with" clouds.

Acts 1:9 (Bauscher's version) "And when he had said these things, as they saw him, he was taken up and a cloud received him and he was hidden from their eyes."

Rev 1:7 ESV "Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen."

Daniel 7:13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.


As to The departed Saints being with Christ in Heaven right now... They most certainly are. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living and they are very much alive. Their bodies are indeed asleep in the dust of the Earth, but will be risen on The Last Day, and reunited with their departed Souls/Spirits...being buried corruptible, but raised incorruptible. Why the need to be back into a physical body, and one which decayed into dust, or was burned in a fire to ashes? Because God fearfully and wonderfully made them, and we will need them again on the Restored/New Earth upon which we will dwell. Yeshua has His same glorifed physical body, in which He rose from the dead in...and so shall all those who are of the Resurrection of the living.

If you read about the "Souls under the Altar" in the Book of Revelation, you can see right there that they are not asleep, but very active indeed...and even are given white robes. And remember that the thief on the Cross, was told by Messiah, that he would be with Him that day in "Paradise", not asleep with Him in the dust of the Earth. Yeshua was not asleep in the tomb when His body was laying there...He was proclaiming the Good News unto the spirits in captivity, and delivering them of their chains...

Job 19:26 "And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God,

Quote: I ask why anyone would want to be resurrected with a body on earth when they are already enjoying heaven so much!!

Because "Heaven" is coming to this Earth, and those/these bodies will be changed/glorified...The whole creation longs for this Day, awaiting it's release from the bondage it was unwillingly subjected to. And it will be glorious indeed!!!

I'll have to end this here for now.

Blessings,
Chuck
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#49
Jesus was the first risen from amongst the dead simply because he is the only one that now has life everlasting in a glorified body. Lazuras, the young girl etc all died afterwards, they were not resurrected, they were given a chance at life, they were resuscitated not resurrected.
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#50
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What about Moses?

Deut 34:6 "...and He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab opposite Beth-peor; but no one knows the place of his burial to this day."

About 1,500 Earth years later, Moses is seen talking with The Messiah, along with the Prophet Elijah.

And what about all those who were raised from the dead during the time of Christ's Passion? Do none of these have their glorified bodies as yet, and are not with the Lord now? Or do they await the Last Day resurrection as we do, dying again and being buried again? Are all God's People still "asleep" in the dust of the Earth, as some teach it, none being with the Lord in Heaven?

Shlama,
Chuck
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#51
No thirdwoe, none of them have glorified bodies as of yet, they are in paradise not heaven. It is not until heaven is revealed that we will receive glorified bodies as per st paul. Moses and Elijah were there with Christ as Spirit not body. Jesus is the only one who has received such a body as per his post crucifixion appearences.
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#52
Paradise is where we receive rest until the Lord comes again in glory and as St Paul states the dead will be raised first and those who are on earth will also be taken up to meet the Lord.

Those who were raised after Christ was crucified also received temporary life similar to those who Christ raised previously. We must trust Holy tradition for without it we start to speculate as many have and are doing regarding scripture. But the Orthodox church was there from the beginning and is the source of truth for such matters, unlike the private interpretation of scripture that others seem to employ to try to understand events that occured 2000 years ago.
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#53
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Shamasha Allan,

Ok..., let me see if I hear you right. So all the Saints, before the time Christ came to Earth, and after He came, whose body had died, all went to "Paradise", where Yeshua told the thief on the Cross he would be with Him that day...And this is not to be confused with Heaven, where no Saints are now present?

Is that correct as is taught by The Church of the East, Shamasha Allan?

I think the Catholic and Orthodox teach that Mary is in Heaven right now, and sits at the right hand of Christ. Is this what is taught by The Church of the East as well?

Shlama,
Chuck
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#54
Yes chuck, scripture professes and the church teaches that heaven is not open, rather these Saints are in paradise with Jesus, for e.g. the thief on the cross. I'll ask my friend who is an orthodox theologian about what they believe, I'm certain it would be very similar.
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#55
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But what about the Virgin Mary? The Catholic and I believe the Orthodox as well, both teach that she is now in Heaven with Christ, whom they call "The Queen of Heaven"

Quote:rather these Saints are in paradise with Jesus

So are you saying there that Christ is not in Heaven, but rather in "Paradise"? But the Scriptures say He is indeed in Heaven as I read them.

Shlama,
Chuck
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#56
Jesus Christ being God is omnipresent my friend. He is everywhere.
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#57
He is seated at the right hand of God, He is in paradise as proclaimed to the thief, He dwells within us, He is in the Eucharist, how can He be contained?
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#58
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Yes indeed! by His Holy Spirit, Our Messiah is everywhere present, He is in us (God's Temple) by His Holy Spirit, which indwells us, His Holy Spiritual Body, He being our Holy Head...though, it's in His glorified physical body that He will return in Glory...the same one He ascended into Heaven in, and which Heaven must receive, until the time appointed by The Father comes to have Him Return at the restoration of all things, to gather all His Sheep unto Himself.

It's awesome to ponder.

Acts 3:19-21
?Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time."

I know that the early Church teachers taught that Paradise and Heaven were not the same location. And it seems to me that as Christ told the thief on the Cross, that he would be with Him that day in Paradise, that later, after He rose from the dead in His glorified physical body, He told Mary that He had not yet ascended to The Father. So this seems to indicate that unto "Our Father who is in Heaven" is not the place where The Messiah went that day with the thief...Paradise.

The Apostle Paul makes reference to "the Third Heaven" and "Paradise" here in 2nd Corinthians 12:2-4 "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago?whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows?such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And I know how such a man?whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows? was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

Then there are these verses:

John 3:13 "No one has ever gone into Heaven except the one who came from Heaven; the Son of Man."
John 6:62 ?Truly you will see therefore The Son of Man ascending to the place where he was from the first.?
John 6:38 "For I have come down from Heaven not to do my will but to do the will of Him who sent me."


Blessings,
Chuck
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#59
Thats right Chuck, Heaven has not been opened and in revelations those who were martyred were given robes and told to wait a little while longer, where were these souls? They were in paradis and in rest.

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, ?How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?? Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Revelation 6:9-11 NKJV)

Notice how they are in a place of rest? Rest from what? Sin, temptations, trials etc this is paradise, a place where we will be at rest from all wordly affairs.
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#60
Alan G77 Wrote:Notice how they are in a place of rest? Rest from what? Sin, temptations, trials etc this is paradise, a place where we will be at rest from all wordly affairs.
This totally made my day <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> A good reminder, thanks!
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