Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Second coming of Yeshua Meshikha
#1
Hello,
Does anyone know what does Church of the East teach about Second Coming of Yeshua Meshikha? Paul, I am sure you know the answer to this.

With me, I believe Yeshua Meshikha came in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem. Here are some major reasons why I believe Yeshua Meshikha came in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem.

Mattai 16:28 (From Paul Younan Interlinear) - "Truly I say to you, that there are men who are standing here who will not taste death, until they see the Son of man come in his kingdom."

Mattai 10:23 (from Paul Younan Interlinear) - "But when they persecute you in this city, you flee to another; for truly I say to you, that you will not complete all the cities of the house [of] Israel, until the son of man will come."

Marqus 9:1 (from Paul Younan Interlinear) - "And he would say to them, Truly I say to you, that there are some who are standing here, who will not taste of death, until they see the Kingdom of God, which has come in power."

Yeshua Meshikha weeping over the city of Jerusalem in Luke 19:41. I was able to work only upto Marqus for Paul Younan's Interlinear. That's why I am using Etheridge translation below.

Luke 19:41-44 (Etheridge translation) - "AND when he approached, and saw the city, he wept over
her, saying, If thou hadst known these things which are for thy peace, and in this thy day! But now they are hidden from thine eyes. But the days will come to thee when thine enemies shall encompass thee and straiten thee on every side,and they shall overthrow thee, and thy children within thee, and not leave in thee one stone upon another,* because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation."

Luke 21:20-21 (Etheridge Translation) But when you see Urishlem encompassed by an army, then know that its destruction hath drawn nigh. Then let them who are in Jihud escape to the mountain, and they who are within her escape, and let not them who are in the country
places enter into her."


konway87
Reply
#2
What Jesus was talking about in Matthew 16:28 was most likely the transfiguration, which is chronicled almost immediately after the event in which Jesus said that. He said that some of them wouldn't taste death, meaning the apostles John, James, and Peter. Many of the prophecies necessary for Christ's return have not yet been fulfilled. He has not come back yet. When Christ comes back He will raise the dead saints from death and give both the living and formerly dead new, heavenly bodies. Lastly, Christ will destroy death. People are still dying, we are in earthly bodies, and all of the dead saints have not been risen from death. Jesus Christ was, and is, and is still to come.
Reply
#3
I have a question, Scorpio Sniper2.

But we see Yeshua Meshikha crying over Jerusalem in Luke 19. We later read Yeshua Meshikha prophesizing about the destruction of temple of Jerusalem (Luke 21) and telling disciples this "then let them who are in Jihud escape to the mountain, and they who are within her escape, and let not them who are in the country places enter into her."

We also read this in the same chapter.

Luke 21:24-27 (Etheridge translation) And they shall fall by the edge * of the sword, and be led captive
into every place, and Urishlem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until shall be fulfilled the times of the Gentiles.
And there will be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars, and on earth distress of nations, and smiting of hands from astonishment at the voice of the sea, the commotion hurrying forth the souls of the sons of men from
fear of what is about to come upon the earth; and the powers of the heavens shall be commoved. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds, with power and great glory."

We know that Yeshua is prophesizing about the destruction of Jerusalem. Don't you think Yeshua Meshikha is prophesizing about his second coming during the destruction of Jerusalem?

Let's just focus on 22 books in Peshitta. We know that the second coming of Yeshua Messiah is mentioned several times in Peshitta especially in the letters by Apostles.

Here are few examples.

Hebrews 10:37 (Etheridge)- Because (yet) a little time, and a very little, and He who cometh shall come, and not be slow.

James 5:7-8 (Etheridge) - "BUT you, my brethren, prolong your spirit until the coming of the Lord; as the husbandman who expecteth the precious fruits of his lands, and prolongeth his spirit for them, until he receive the rain the
early and the latter; so also you, prolong your spirit, and your hearts confirm; for the
coming of our Lord draweth nigh
."


We know that the destruction of Jerusalem was in AD 70. We also read about false prophets during that time. We also know that there were several extraordinary events happened during that time. These extraordinary events were recorded by Josephus, Roman Historian Tacitus, and later by Eusebius and Sepher Yosippon.


Josephus writes in, The Wars of the Jews, Book 4, Chapter 4, Paragraph 5, Lines 286, 287, of an earthquake in Judea, "...for there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continual lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake...anyone would guess that these wonders foreshadowed some grand calamities that were coming."

Jewish Wars 6:286 (6.5.2.286) Now, there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose upon the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God: and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes.

Jewish Wars 6:289 (6.5.3.289) Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year.

Jewish Wars 6:290 (6.5.3.290) Thus also, before the Jews? rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus [Nisan], and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which light lasted for half an hour.

Jewish Wars 6:291 (6.5.3.291) This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it.

Now comes the most important part (underlined part) which was recorded by Josephus, Tacitus, Eusebius, and Yosippon.


Jewish Wars 6:296 (6.5.3.296) So these publicly declared, that this signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the twenty-first day of the month Artemisius [Jyar],

Jewish Wars 6:297 (6.5.3.297) a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it,

Jewish Wars 6:298 (6.5.3.298) and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sunsetting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen

Jewish Wars 6:299 (6.5.3.299) running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise,

Jewish Wars 6:300 (6.5.3.300) and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, ?Let us remove hence.?

The underlined part is very interesting, because of these verses in the bible.

Jeremiah 4:13 Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.

Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

We read about LORD and his chariots in other verses like Psalms 68:17, Psalms 104:3, Zechariah 6:1, 2 Kings Chapter 2 and Chapter 6.
Reply
#4
:

Konway,

You are breaking the rules of the forum... please stop.

Full Preterism hath its many holes...

This is all speaking of "the coming" of God's judgment upon Jerusalem, which Christ foretold would take place before that generation passsed away. It indeed took place from 66-70 A.D.

But this is not to be confused with the Return of Christ to this Earth, to judge/harvest all Nations, when the resurrection of the dead in Christ takes place and we all are gathered unto Christ. But 1st the tares are gathered out of His Kingdom and burned, then the Righteous will shine forth in His Kingdom.

Shlama,
Chuck
Reply
#5
If I am breaking the rules of the forum, then there are moderators here. They will do what is necessary. I will stop if Paul Younan or Steven Silver tells me. I am writing based on what is mentioned in Peshitta.
Reply
#6
:

Knoway,

No...the Peshitta does not teach that the Return of Christ took place in 70 A.D.

That is your interpretation of what you think it means in those various verses, but the full Preterism boat you've jumped into has way too many holes for it to float.
Reply
#7
You keep talking that full preterism has way too many holes for it to float. Yet, you haven't shown a single shred of evidence to support your claim.
Reply
#8
konway87 Wrote:If I am breaking the rules of the forum, then there are moderators here. They will do what is necessary. I will stop if Paul Younan or Steven Silver tells me. I am writing based on what is mentioned in Peshitta.

Shlama Akhi Konway:
Indeed we will have to tread softly here. If we quote Josephus as if it was an explanation for when and how Yeshua Mashikha will RETURN to gather His Saints we then are right in the area of Eschatology and there are many views and surmisings. We need to be very careful not to draw from Josephus as from the prophetic Word spoken to the Prophets by the Rukha d'Kadusha, who will guide us into all truth.
We're still here and we await the coming of Mashikha. We will open a new discussion which preterism can not answer alone. Is this a mystery to be revealed to us in it's time as Daniel fortold? I think so. Therefore let's stear clear of the discussion, or we will have to open the entire interpretation of preterism and get very confused, so let us tread softly here. Let's take a step back and be more patient. Everything will be revealed in its time. I'd rather forego quoting Josephus, as though he was a prophet. He saw his own generation and wrote a history and it is this history which somehow has been confused with the Second Coming of Mashikha and caused much confusion. Alaha is not the author of confusion. Your responses brethren. What think ye?

Shlama,
Stephen Silver.
Reply
#9
Hello Stephen,
I agree when you say "We need to be very careful not to draw from Josephus as from the prophetic Word spoken to the Prophets by the Rukha d'Kadusha, who will guide us into all truth."

But the thing is extraordinary events (especially vision in the clouds) is also recorded by Roman Historian Tacitus who lived during that time.

Through Peshitta, We know Yeshua Meshikha predicted his second coming coming whenever he explained about the destruction of temple of Jerusalem (For Example, Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21).

Let me take Mark 13 this time.

Mark 13:14 (Etheridge) - "But when you see the unclean sign of desolation, that which is spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, he who readeth, let him understand! then let those who are in Jehud flee to the
mountain
."

Yeshua Meshikha is saying let people who live in Jehud flee to the mountain. We also read this in Luke 21.

Luke 21:20-21 (Etheridge) - But when you see Urishlem encompassed by an army, then know that its destruction hath drawn nigh. Then let them who are in Jihud escape to the mountain, and they who are within her escape, and let not them who are in the country places enter into her.

So we are reading about the destructon of Jerusalem which happened in AD 70.

I am repeating this verse again.

James 5:7-9 (Etheridge) - "BUT you, my brethren, prolong your spirit until the coming of the Lord; as the husbandman who expecteth the precious fruits of his lands, and prolongeth his spirit for them, until he receive the rain the
early and the latter; so also you, prolong your spirit, and your hearts confirm; for the
coming of our Lord draweth nigh
. Groan * not one against another, my brethren, that you be not
judged; for, behold, the Judge standeth before the door."

In James 5:7-9, We read that the coming of our Lord was near. Apostle James also says "behold the judge standeth before the door." Why would James write "coming of our Lord draweth near" to the people who lived during that time?
Reply
#10
:

Konway,

Read the 1st part of 2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2...in Peshitta. And tell us when this took place then?

And when did the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ take place in 70 A.D.? Which Yeshu' told us would be on The Last Day, not 2 thousand years of days ago.

The Apostle Paul warns there in 2nd Thessalonians about some people claiming that the Return of Christ had already taken place....there were full preterists around even at that time, teaching falsley. Why be in their number?

Again...you are confusing the coming of the Lord's judgment upon Jerusalem in 70 A.D. by the Roman armies, which was prophesied...with the Return of Christ, to judge the living and the dead and judge the whole world on The Last Day. Yeshu' spoke of both events...and they are not the same event, nor did/do they take place at the same point in time.


Did all this happen in 70 A.D.? Nope...

Acts 1:11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

Acts 3:21 "He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets."

Romans 8: 18-25
"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience."


It seems to me, that a full preterist does not believe in a physical Return of Christ to this Earth, nor a physical Resurrection of the bodies of the Saints at the Return of Christ and that they do not believe that all things will be restored and all creation will be freed from its bondage and subjection to death, or that death will even ever end in this world.


Shlama,
Chuck
Reply
#11
Thirdwoe,
Now you supported your statement with verses from Peshitta. I like that and I deeply appreciate that.

I think you are expecting return of Christ (in his physical form) with a physical kingdom.

I want to point out something - We cannot take "everything" literally in Bible.

Here are some examples.

We know that Jews were expecting the return of Elijah before the return of the Christ (Matthew 17:10-13). We also know this from Prophet Malachi (Malachi 4:5). But we know that Elijah didn't comeback "physically." But came back "spiritually." Disciples were expecting Elijah to return "physically." This can be seen in Matthew 17:10. Yeshua Meshikha answers their question in Matthew 17:11-13.

Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.? Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist (Matthew 17:11-13 NIV).

John the Baptist came before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous?to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. This is mentioned in Luke 1:17.

Let me take another example.

John 2:18-22 (NIV) - "The Jews then responded to him, ?What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?? Jesus answered them, ?Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.? They replied, ?It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?? But the temple he had spoken of was his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken."

The Jews took the meaning literally.

Acts 1:11 (Murdock) - "and saying to them: Ye Galilean men, why stand ye and look toward heaven? This Jesus, who is taken up from you to heaven, will so come, as ye have seen him ascend to heaven."

But don't take this literally.

I don't "think" we can use "same way" because we know that there are differences in his return. You may ask that what are the differences?

Let me take Mark 13:26 (Murdock) - "And then will they see the Son of man coming in the clouds, with great power and glory." So don't take everything literally.

Let me take Matthew 27:52-53 - "and graves were opened; and many bodies of saints who slept, arose, and came forth; and, after his resurrection, entered into the holy city, and appeared to many."

Aside from mentioning in Gospels, we know that there is no historical record of this. But does that mean it didn't happen? No. Both You and me know that it did happen.

Not only that, Apostle James points out that the coming of the Lord was near to the people who lived during that time (James 5:7-9).

Apostle Peter also wrote this in 1 Peter 4:7 (Murdock) - "But the end of all things approacheth: therefore be sober, and be wakeful for prayer." Apostle Paul also mentions about that Yeshua Meshikha returning in "a little" time in Hebrews 10:37. Remember, we know that he was writing this to the people who lived during his time. If the end didn't happen during that period of time, then Apostle Paul, Apostle Peter and Apostle James will become frauds.

What I am trying to say is Yeshua Meshikha returned to establish his "spiritual" kingdom. We know that God is a spirit (John 4:24). So his kingdom is a spiritual kingdom. Not a physical kingdom. Like Yeshua Meshikha said - "For God is a Spirit; and they that worship him, should worship in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24 Murdock Translation). Elijah didn't return physically. Elijah returned "spiritually."

What I believe is Yeshua Meshikha conquered spiritual death and finally established his spiritual kingdom in the final battle in AD 70 during the destruction of Jerusalem. But my post is getting too long. I will explain more later.
Reply
#12
:

Konway,

Do you confess and believe what the Nicene Creed states? And if not, what group do you belong to?
Reply
#13
There are good things about Nicene Creed. There are somethings I don't agree with Nicene Creed. I am sure you know which part I don't agree with. I am from India where St. Thomas preached.
Reply
#14
:

Which parts do you not agree with? And what group do you fellowship with in India, and partake of The Lord's body with?
Reply
#15
I am from South Indian state called Kerala. My grandparents were part of Church of the East (established by St. Thomas) until Catholicism arrived. You can read what Catholicism did in Kerala in the books. Its a long history.

One thing I can point out is they forced Kerala Christians to convert into Catholicism. Lots of people (including my grandparents) opposed this and joined SOC (Syrian Orthodox Church). That's where I belong now.

We deeply respect Peshitta (22 books) and also last 5 books including Revelation. I can tell you that I disagree with the last part of Nicene Creed. I am not feeling well. So I am not going further into discussion. I did what I could with the discussion of Second coming of Yeshua Meshikha.
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 5 Guest(s)