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I don't like that the Oneness vs. Trinity is so divisive. I sympathize with the Trinitarian belief but I am not Trinitarian myself. I think the main thing is that we both believe that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh and that we rely on Him alone for our salvation. You all don't use the "Persons" terminology. Correct? Here is what we teach in more detail about the Godhead:
What we teach is that there is one God in one Person who has revealed Himself throughout the ages in many manifestations (the main three being the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). We teach that the Father is quite simply YHWH God and that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of YHWH. The Son, in Oneness theology, is eternal in Person but was not eternally Son. We teach that God was not Son until the incarnation. Jesus is the Son of God because His birth through Mary was the means of the incarnation and because His human existence was fathered by the one true God. Jesus, being God existing as a Man, surrendered His divine prerogatives and took upon Himself the form of a servant (taking on every limitation normal people have except for sin, including operating by the anointing of the Spirit, having a limited consciousness, etc.) while never losing His deity in the process. The Father is distinct from the Son in the sense that the Father is deity only, while the Son is both (sinless) human and divine in nature.
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Hi Paul,
I appreciated your post about baptism being essential to salvation. Now to dig deeper, may you tell me:
Does CoE teach that sins are removed after going into the water? (To better word it, does CoE teach baptismal justification?)
In the West, [most Protestant] churches do what is called the 'Sinner's Prayer'. The Sinner's Prayer is this: faith + repentance + a prayer = justification.
I am curious about what CoE teaches.
~DC
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DrawCloser Wrote:Hi Paul,
I appreciated your post about baptism being essential to salvation. Now to dig deeper, may you tell me:
Does CoE teach that sins are removed after going into the water? (To better word it, does CoE teach baptismal justification?)
In the West, [most Protestant] churches do what is called the 'Sinner's Prayer'. The Sinner's Prayer is this: faith + repentance + a prayer = justification.
I am curious about what CoE teaches.
~DC
Have you ever read of the historical account of Mar Tamasgerd? If not, you should google his name and read his moving story. For in it you can find out much about the theology of the CoE.
Here is a picture of the church built over the site where this all happened.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.gerty.ncl.ac.uk/images/Q_200.jpg">http://www.gerty.ncl.ac.uk/images/Q_200.jpg</a><!-- m -->
+Shamasha
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Shamas,
I can't find anything on him, i came across this website though, have you seen it before and should i be careful about it. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.oxuscom.com/nestpage.htm">http://www.oxuscom.com/nestpage.htm</a><!-- m -->
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:
Hi SS2,
So as not to have this thread go into other directions, I have sent you a message in your personal box, regarding your post above about oneness theology.
Shlama,
Chuck
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Hi Paul:
I could not find the CoE theology from Mar Tamasgerd. But I found something else with a one mention of him.
But, may you (or any other CoE member) tell me -- is this trustworthy information? --> <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.aina.org/books/itthotac/itthotac.htm#c30">http://www.aina.org/books/itthotac/itthotac.htm#c30</a><!-- m -->
Or should I be careful of Western ignorance in the text?
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Shlama,
Here is a poem or homilie about Tahmazgerd of Bet Slokh, by Giwargis Warda. But I'm not sure if this is the same Tamasgerd Paul Younan referred to.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://books.google.com/books?id=OSEYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA94&hl=pt-BR">http://books.google.com/books?id=OSEYAA ... 4&hl=pt-BR</a><!-- m -->
german translation here:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://books.google.com/books?id=OSEYAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA74&hl=pt-BR">http://books.google.com/books?id=OSEYAA ... 4&hl=pt-BR</a><!-- m -->
(users outside USA may have to use a proxy to view the file)
To find bibliographic information on oriental saints and martyrs, there is this very usefull book:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://wp.me/ppESR-zv">http://wp.me/ppESR-zv</a><!-- m -->
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Below are two very good source on the persecutions perpetrated upon the COE.
Mar Tamasgerd story:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.oxuscom.com/persecution.htm">http://www.oxuscom.com/persecution.htm</a><!-- m -->
and
Many More Persecutions The COE Suffered Over Time:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://wincoast.com/forum/showthread.php?28991-Muslims-Leaving-In-Droves-for-Christianity/page6">http://wincoast.com/forum/showthread.ph ... nity/page6</a><!-- m -->
<!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/sad.gif" alt=" " title="Sad" /><!-- s --> Upon reading this one keep in mind the picture Paul posted above
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All,
My intent in pointing out the story of our only unbaptized Saint in the CoE (Mar Tamasgerd) was to clarify our theology on the necessity of Baptism as a sacrament. Although Mar Tamasgerd did not have a chance to officially submit to baptism in water at the hands of an apostolic authority, yet he was baptized in his own blood (as a Martyr), just shortly after butchering with his own hands dozens, if not hundreds, of believers. That he even has a church named after him is an astounding testament to how his story shows us that the love of God our Father extends even to those who are actively persecuting us, and that His forgiveness knows no limits.
+Shamasha
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Brother Paul, so to make sure that I received a correct interpretation of what you wrote -- correct me please:
"CoE believes that God saves people without baptism, but in exceptional circumstances."
~ DC
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The Texas RAT Wrote:Below are two very good source on the persecutions perpetrated upon the COE.
Mar Tamasgerd story:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.oxuscom.com/persecution.htm">http://www.oxuscom.com/persecution.htm</a><!-- m -->
and
Many More Persecutions The COE Suffered Over Time:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://wincoast.com/forum/showthread.php?28991-Muslims-Leaving-In-Droves-for-Christianity/page6">http://wincoast.com/forum/showthread.ph ... nity/page6</a><!-- m -->
<!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/sad.gif" alt="" title="Sad" /><!-- s --> Upon reading this one keep in mind the picture Paul posted above
Below you can find more pictures from the Church of Mar Tamasgerd in Kirkuk. Notice the first one containing the tombs inside. (click the photos for a larger resolution)
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.gerty.ncl.ac.uk/photo_details.php?photo_id=4482">http://www.gerty.ncl.ac.uk/photo_detail ... to_id=4482</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.gerty.ncl.ac.uk/photo_details.php?photo_id=4483">http://www.gerty.ncl.ac.uk/photo_detail ... to_id=4483</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.gerty.ncl.ac.uk/photo_details.php?photo_id=4488">http://www.gerty.ncl.ac.uk/photo_detail ... to_id=4488</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.gerty.ncl.ac.uk/photo_details.php?photo_id=4491">http://www.gerty.ncl.ac.uk/photo_detail ... to_id=4491</a><!-- m -->
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DrawCloser Wrote:Brother Paul, so to make sure that I received a correct interpretation of what you wrote -- correct me please:
"CoE believes that God saves people without baptism, but in exceptional circumstances."
~ DC
Hi DC,
The CoE believes in many kinds of baptisms, and that the baptism of martyrs is the greatest of all.
Did you know that people were forbidden to wash the bodies of martyrs (which went against the normal custom of washing the corpse of the deceased) ? It was always said that you must not wash the bodies of martyrs, because they were baptized in their own blood. They were to be buried with their blood still on them as their crown and final testament.
The thief on the cross did not have a chance to become baptized, either, but is clearly with Christ.
But that does not mean that those of us who have the opportunity to be baptized should shirk that responsibility, it is after all, a command directly from Christ. It is something that He Himself did.
+Shamasha
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Thanks a lot Paul. I liked what you said. <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt=" " title="Smile" /><!-- s -->
And does CoE practice full-water immersion or is it ok with pouring? I am wondering if Peshitta 'amud allows in its meaning "baptism by pouring".
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DrawCloser Wrote:Thanks a lot Paul. I liked what you said. <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s -->
And does CoE practice full-water immersion or is it ok with pouring? I am wondering if Peshitta 'amud allows in its meaning "baptism by pouring".
It depends, if it's an infant then it is usually a full immersion. If it is an adult, then it can be done with pouring. 'amud is "immersion" in English, but that doesn't have to be a full-body immersion. Your hands are 'amud in water when washing them, etc.
+Shamasha
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One thing I've been curious about is the baptism of the dead that the Apostle Paul spoke of.
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