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Early Netzarim Writings?
#1
As I have said in my 1st post, I have been doing alot of reading of the "early Church Fathers", at first I was disheartened at the Lawlessness taught in most of them, but have since had great enjoyment reading the "Apostolic Fathers" (the EARLIEST Church writings outside of the Bible) especially Polycarp and Ignatius who both speak very highly of the LORD's Commandments though some of Ignatius' comments must be understood in context.

Paul Younan has given me some links to Eastern History of the Church which has been great too, but what I'm really wondering is, are there any writings by the Torah-observant Jewish Christians (outside of the Bible) that have survived down to today?

I'm after EVERYTHING I can get my hands on.

Thanks for your time,

Shalom,
Kefa.
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#2
aspiring2slavery Wrote:As I have said in my 1st post, I have been doing alot of reading of the "early Church Fathers", at first I was disheartened at the Lawlessness taught in most of them, but have since had great enjoyment reading the "Apostolic Fathers" (the EARLIEST Church writings outside of the Bible) especially Polycarp and Ignatius who both speak very highly of the LORD's Commandments though some of Ignatius' comments must be understood in context.

Paul Younan has given me some links to Eastern History of the Church which has been great too, but what I'm really wondering is, are there any writings by the Torah-observant Jewish Christians (outside of the Bible) that have survived down to today?

I'm after EVERYTHING I can get my hands on.

Thanks for your time,

Shalom,
Kefa.


Shlama Akhi SS2:
The earliest Netzarim writings, which have been recorded are the Katava Kadisha. All other writings find their source in them. I hope that you are successful in finding a copy. When you do let us know, for we are all interested in the very source writings of the Netzarim Sect. Good hunting. <!-- s:onfire: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/onfire.gif" alt=":onfire:" title="On Fire" /><!-- s:onfire: -->

Shlama,
Stephen
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#3
I have now read/listened to 12 of the earliest extra-biblical writings, and I am blown away at how much they exhort the believers to obey God's Law.

When I started my journey into the historical writings, I started in the "Early Church Fathers", because obviously I was interested in the EARLY CHURCH, but the Devil as crafty as he is, saw to it that those writings that taught obedience to God's Law were not under that label, but rather called the "Apostolic Fathers". No doubt, by the time most people get through the "Early Church" writings of what is primarily 3rd century texts, they are thoroughly convinced that the early church did not keep God's Law (and ofcourse they turn a blind eye to the many heresies contained in those writings in order to justify their lawlessness).

These are the texts I have gone through so far:

Didache
1st Clement
2nd Clement
Shepherd of Hermas
Polycarp to the Philippians
And the 7 letters of Ignatius

So far the only 2nd century writer I've found that teaches against the Torah, is Justin Martyr, but even then he admits in his writings that though he may belong to a Lawless Sect, there remains true Christians that indeed keep the Torah.

It is so interesting to me, as the preaching of Lawlessness increases in the writings, how more and more heresies are introduced to the Church such as Idolatry, praying to Angels, and ofcourse, the Pope :/

Shalom.
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#4
aspiring2slavery Wrote:I have now read/listened to 12 of the earliest extra-biblical writings, and I am blown away at how much they exhort the believers to obey God's Law.

When I started my journey into the historical writings, I started in the "Early Church Fathers", because obviously I was interested in the EARLY CHURCH, but the Devil as crafty as he is, saw to it that those writings that taught obedience to God's Law were not under that label, but rather called the "Apostolic Fathers". No doubt, by the time most people get through the "Early Church" writings of what is primarily 3rd century texts, they are thoroughly convinced that the early church did not keep God's Law (and ofcourse they turn a blind eye to the many heresies contained in those writings in order to justify their lawlessness).

These are the texts I have gone through so far:

Didache
1st Clement
2nd Clement
Shepherd of Hermas
Polycarp to the Philippians
And the 7 letters of Ignatius

So far the only 2nd century writer I've found that teaches against the Torah, is Justin Martyr, but even then he admits in his writings that though he may belong to a Lawless Sect, there remains true Christians that indeed keep the Torah.

It is so interesting to me, as the preaching of Lawlessness increases in the writings, how more and more heresies are introduced to the Church such as Idolatry, praying to Angels, and ofcourse, the Pope :/

Shalom.

Shlama SS2:
Understand that the New Testament was written exclusively by Jews. All Jewish believers were zealous for Torah, as the Apostle Paul has said in the Book of Acts. Never will you find any of the Apostles encouraging Gentiles to keep more than a rudimentary representation of the Torah. Why is this? It is because Gentiles were never raised under the LAW/Torah, nor did they grow up to really understand its nuances from birth. It is only through salvation of our LORD Jesus Christ that they understand that the Torah makes us formally aware of our sin in its entirety and the devastation that it has wrought. Only converts who were taught the Torah and converted before receiving Christ as Saviour kept the LAW like Jews, for under Jewish Law, they were circumcised as Jews under the LAW of Moses. In reading Acts 15 in its entirety we can see the rudimentary LAWS of Torah, "do not commit idolatry, do not drink blood , do not partake of animals that have been strangled (pour out the blood at the altar of Alaha, for the life/soul of the flesh is in the blood) and do not commit adultery". The one and only purpose of these stipulations for the Gentiles directly from the LAW was to prepare them for fellowship with their Jewish brethren. There may have been more reasons given but they are not recorded in Acts 15 to my knowledge.
The uniformity was minimal for Gentiles so that the Body of Christ might be One Body consisting of both Jews and Gentiles, without faction, factions and sects and denominations are overwhelmingly prevalent in the Christian Church in this day and age. The fact that the LAW is the written definition of what sin in the flesh stands for, to both Jew and non-Jew. Just as the Gentiles had benign traditions so also the Jews had benign traditions as well that were embellishments, finding these "hiddur mitzvah" based upon the keeping of the LAW, since Moses divinely delivered the LAW to the nation of Israel when they were led by Moses from Egypt, beginning with the festival of Pesakh and the command to fulfill Shabbat. Over a period of 40 years these Laws were embellished, and defined as the customs and traditions of the nation of Israel, indeed they were the very lifestyle of the Jews. Since the main purpose of the Torah to all nations including both Jews and Gentiles is to define sin and iniquity it can be found that all humanity lies in sin, both Jews and Gentiles. The Spirit of Alaha bears witness to this and He bore witness to this at the Jerusalem Council. The Law, having never been the custom and tradition of the Gentiles was not needed except rudimentarily. The Holy Spirit would make the sinner aware. Hence it is written, '"those who have no law use their conscience, not the written code. Jews have the written code and because it defines their culture and tradition as well as their sin they are required to keep it.
Now, I will take liberty here and say that any one born a Jew and not knowing his race, either by adoption or total neglect of the parents and is not raised knowing the LAW of Moses is the same as a Gentile and not subject to the Keeping of the Law, including ritual circumcision, as a Jew who was raised under the Law, from birth and has partaken of the Culture and Tradition.
Moreover, The Torah is a burden to the Gentile. Why? Simply because he has not partaken of both the festivals and the Culture and stumbles at them. They are not his natural heritage. A crude parallel, if I may be allowed is transgender, A boy who has not been raised as a boy from birth has no natural recall of his childhood as a girl. This individual, truly and individually loved by Alaha because he/she is part to His creation will never truly find his/her natural identity. He may live, act and dress like a girl but he still has no childhood memories as a girl. At best he has a confused gender orientation. After hormone treatment and councelling he may develop breasts and the soft curves of a woman's body but He is sterile and will undoubtedly have psychological stresses all through adulthood. So it is for the Gentile who tries to keep Torah. To the Jew, Torah Customs and Traditions cannot be seen as burdens or some foreign thing when they are family participations. These events leave lasting memories in the mind of the Jew that will last his/her whole life and mature as they are practiced. The Jew is reminded that he is a Jew and it is his beloved heritage. The Gentile in Christ rejoices in his salvation by adoption just as the natural olive branch does, his inclusion in the family of Meshikha and the company of loving, supportive believers. He shares eternal life in Meshikha as does the Jewish believer, without being perceived as a second class citizen. He is a fully priveledged son of Alaha in Christ Jesus. His joy is complete in his salvation and in his fellowship with both Jews and Gentiles in one humungous Body of Meshikha. I welcome all scriptural responses.

Shlama,
Stephen
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#5
It is an interesting response. I think that Elohim is merciful with us and he understand that we are learning. Must of us don't come from a Jewish family, so first you realize that Y'shua is your savior and the importance of the commandments and then later reading the Bible, a lot of people is realizing that some parts of the law that had been denied by the church are still relevant to our spiritual life. There were a lot of commandments that I didn't keep until I read the Bible and realize they exist. Elohim convince me about the importance of the festivals and the Shabbath, so I started to practice them. It is a process that every individual have in their relationship with the father. The problem is when you realize that you aren't or are doing something that Elohim don't want or want and then you don't care about it.
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#6
Shlama Carlos:
If you can get a hold of a PDF or any books by Paul Phillip Levertoff, a Khassidic JBJ (Jewish Believer in Jesus), you will see just how difficult it was for him to work out a mutually agreeable theology between Practicing Jews and Practicing Christians. Personally I find him to be one of the few that received accolades from the Jewish Community while being funded by Christian missions. He helped to translate the Zohar and is given written credit in the volumes for his contributions. he lived from the last part of the 19th Century well into the 20th century. I have an introductory PDF that one of the members of peshitta.org directed me to, but I can't remember his name or monaker.

Shlama,
Stephen
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#7
About the earliest Messianic Jewish sources,

This is my first post on this forum, but I thought it might be a good idea to share some of the sources I have come across, even though this is an old thread.


There are a few books that may be helpful, one is from the 1930's by Hugh J. Schonfield, and is called "The History of Jewish Christianity". He does mention that one of the earliest Jewish-Christian Sources we have are the Odes of Solomon, which are written in "Syriac" and have a great deal of agreement with the Peshitta version of Yochanan because of their mutual use of the Term "Miltha."

But another Good source about the first Jewish followers of Yeshua is the work by professors Pines and Flusser on the Abd Al Jabar Text. Which includes several first hand accounts by a Messianic Jewish group in 9th Century Iraq in the city that is today Mosul.

it can be found online here <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/books/pines02.pdf">http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/books/pines02.pdf</a><!-- m -->

in fact this text maybe the best smoking gun to help support the fact that the Peshitta is Jewish in Origin and is an exemplar of these Jewish communities.

there are some more sources we can find in the Talmud of course, but I thought I would see if anybody has delt with any of these texts before.
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