"Let no (pagan) therefore judge you..."

[Luc Lefebvre]

Thanks for your comments Luc...I agree with most of your interpretations there.

You're welcome <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s --> And thank you! I know I'm somewhat on the defense here with Torah observance, but I want you to know that your comments are apreciated. Especially right now, as Marya is really putting on my heart the things that Yeshua calls the "weightier matters of Torah". My heart is being prepared for something big behind the scenes of what may seem like a typical internet discussion.

And I do not say that a person who has Christ in them by the New Birth, need not walk in Christ's commands, but since it is not they who live, but Christ who lives in them...there is nothing to boast about, or take credit for doing so.

This is a very excellent point that I don't think can be stressed enough!

Blessed is the man, whose trasgressions are not counted against him, but has been forgiven and covered by The Blood of the better Covenant. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (A)...those who walk not in the flesh (B) but in the Spirit ©.

Just a side note: I find it interesting that the early Greek only has (A), the Aramaic has (A) and (B), and the Textus Receptus has (A), (B), and ©. Hmm...

And Luc, which parts of the Law of Moses do you NOT keep? And does God condemn you for not keeping them? And since it is written that if you break the least law, you have broken them all, how does it work, if you break some of them, that you think you are keeping the Law of Moses?

The parts that I do not keep are those that are not applicable (and Andrew does a pretty good job at listing these as such in his appendix). But examples would be anything related to the Temple and it's service, things specifically for priests/kings, or laws specifically meant to be kept in the land of Israel as a theocratic government (7th year of rest, Jubilee, etc.). But I do keep things like Shabbat, Biblical Kosher, Feast days, wearing of tzitzit, etc.

Condemnation though I think is the wrong word. Convicted, yes, but not condmened. For example, if I do things that are questionable on Shabbat, I am convicted and feel bad about it. Not because I'm "in trouble" but because I know that I'm taking away from that special time that the Lord desires to spend with me (either individually or with my community of faith). Not saying of course that I cannot spend time with Him on other days of the week, but there are things that must be done in life and Shabbat is the day where He gets my undivided attention and I fully rest in Him. And if I choose to do other things on Shabbat that should be done during the rest of the week, like in any relationship, I'm declaring that those are more important than time with Him.

Now, when James says that if we break the Law at one point we have broken all of it, I understand him to be emphasizing that every aspect of the Law is important. And so, I study every aspect of the Law and glean all that my God wishes to teach me from it. Then through the continual process of sanctification, I observe what I can; not as a form of empty ritual, but according to the Spirit: realizing that the ultimate goal is to be like Christ and bear the fruits of the Spirit. If I am not bearing fruit then my observance is in vain.

Would you compel a gentile man to be circumcised, or grow his beard, or not eat certain foods, such as pork, as the Law of Moses commands, or instead tell them that it is no longer required under the new and better Covenant to be concerned with such things?

Ah, there is that word again, "required". Required for what I ask? This is a question I routinely ask myself because it is an important one with the whole Torah Observant mvoement that exists out there these days. Requireds for justification, salvation, a place in the world to come? No. This was the whole debate with circumcision in the first place, for in the 1st century, a Gentile was not clean by any means and had to be converted in order to be saved (according to their theology). God of course proved this wrong by not only giving Peter the vision that He did, but it was confirmed when all the Jewish believers saw that Gentiles recieved the Holy Spirit the same as them.

But even if such is not required in that sense, it doesn't mean that we should not do it, or that it is void of all benefit. I think it is important sometimes to understand why God commanded such in the first place, and then to observe as one is convicted and understands (I say sometimes because statutes [chukkat] are thigns that were instructed without explanation, such as washing your hands under running water, something we only recently figured out was because it washes away the germs). But the aspects of the Torah you mention I think fall into a category that is to be addressed on a community level (using the system of Acts 15 as our model). Community halacha always needs to be established by the elders of a community as is agreeable to the will of God. For example, using the same 1st century issue addressed by the jerusalem council, if circumcision is pushed as a means of conversion because you cannot be saved without converting, I would rule against that because it goes against the will of God and His work completed in Christ. But as a command of God that one wishes to do as an outward sign and reflection of the inward circumcision of the heart, that is acceptable, and indeed, a fulfillment of the command. Doing it for the sake of ritual alone, like baptism, is worthless, because rituals are powerless if it is not for the faith and heart intention which drives you to do it. Other commands need to be addressed on an individual basis though. Like with beards, that in and of itself it debatable (see Andrew Roth's response here - <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://therefinersfire.org/beards.htm">http://therefinersfire.org/beards.htm</a><!-- m -->) and kosher is important in that it is God's instructions for what He has designed to be food and what He has designed for other purposes. It may be lawful for us to do otherwise, but is it profitable? God commanded these thigns for a reason and not only are there health benefits to kosher but there are spiritual lessons and such to be gleaned as well. But it is a patient process of learning and sanctification. So, assuming their basic needs were already met, I would encourage a Gentile to learn more, especially if they were planning on joining a community that follows such commandments.

But to once again address the term "required", I would say that there are contexts in which they would be required, and such examples would be community oneness, Jewish outreach (not for the sake of pretending so that we may "win them over", but to provoke genuine jealousy which is difficult to do when living in a manner that is contrary to the fullness of applicable Torah), OR... perhaps experience and unleash a fullness that God desires but that we ourselves haven't fully understood or grasped yet (but merely observing all we can be faith and seeing where it takes us). Every aspect of Scripture speaks to me about how it is good to keep the commandments, however, in the Apostolic Scriptures it does not define which ones or how to keep them in the detail we Gentiles may desire it (although we certainly have a basis for the "meaty matters" with the sermon on the mount and many of the things that Paul says NOT to do). One could interpret Ephesians 2:12 in the sense that Gentiles are now part of Israel's commonwealth and covenants, and therefore, assume that all of it is. But nonetheless, in some cases, prayer and faith are our best course of action and in anycase, this term "required" is certainly something to be weary of and should not be used lightly but rather have it's proper place recognized.

I think that is enough for one post. Shlama!