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Early Christian view of the Holy Trinity
#1
Greetings,

I have been doing some research into an early view of the Trinity. Does anyone know of any early gospels or writings which depict the Holy Spirit as female? Shechinah has always had a female connotation as I understand it. The Trinity makes more sense as Father, Mother and Son to me at least.

Thanks,

Dan
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#2
The Holy Spirit is The Spirit of the Father and of The Son. Do a study in The Bible, look up ALL the places where it speaks of The Holy Spirit being The Spirit of The Father and The Spirit His Son, The Spirit of Jesus, and so forth, you will begin to get a better idea that way, than saying The Holy Spirit is a female person.

Furthermore, this notion that there are 3 seperate beings/persons one Father, one Son, and one Mother...3 persons = 1 God, is not taught in Holy Scripture anywhere at all. There is and always has been just ONE GOD. And He has only ONE BEGOTTON SON, Jesus Christ, and He has The Spirit of His Father, Without Measure, being one with His Father by and through God's Holy Spirit.

Please note: God, sent His Holy Spirit to impreagnate Mary, the Mother of Christ, not by natural means, but supernaturally...so I think we must consider this, with this idea, that The Holy Spirit is a female person. I have heard some Roman Catholics try to teach this idea before, and it wont work on a number of levels.

Blessings,
Chuck
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#3
I have studied scripture extensively. God created the human race male and female in God's image. The Adam was potentially a hermaphrodite before the 'rib/curve' was taken out. Furtheremore, Yeshua defines the Holy Spirit as a 'helper', Eve was a helpmate to Adam. I see God as an infinite self awareness. The Father is Will, Yeshua is Word/Miltha and the Holy Spirit is Action. Some Early Syriac writings do portray the Holy Spirit as being feminine. I do appreciate your reply.
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#4
TrueVineBranch Wrote:Some Early Syriac writings do portray the Holy Spirit as being feminine. I do appreciate your reply.

Hi TrueVineBranch,

Welcome to the forum. In Aramaic, as in many languages, nouns have a grammatical gender. It is a somewhat strange concept to English speakers as this is not common in English. It is a feature of other European languages, most notably French.

In Aramaic, the word "spirit" is feminine in gender, grammatically speaking. That doesn't mean that a spirit is feminine. Of course a spirit is neither male nor female in gender.

Due to the grammar, many early (and modern) Aramaic writers played on this feature of the language for dramatic effect. Often times, you will read early Aramaic poems that refer to the Holy Spirit with feminine features (especially in adjectives and verbs). That is because the grammar of the language demands it. Verbs will also reflect this, because in Aramaic a verb must agree with the noun in gender, number and person.

Be careful not to read too much into this. The Holy Spirit is of course neither male nor female - that's a matter of X and Y chromosomes, a strictly human differentiation.

+Shamasha
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#5
Yes...and we must not try to put God into our box either, as if there is a family of Deities that created the Universe...this is where these human wonderings lead to. A Father and A Mother Spirit, gives birth to a Son/Jesus... Come on. That is NOT what God has revealed to us in His Holy Book. Why start another false doctrine? Doesn't the world have enough already?

As to God creating us in His image and likeness...does God have reproductive organs, is He a human Being? It means something else.

The Word who is God, was manifested in humanity, in the person of Jesus the Annointed one of God, God is not a human being, not before, not know. God was/in IN Christ doing and manifesting His will in and through His Son/Offspring.

If I'm understanding you TVB, you are trying to teach that The Holy Spirit is a Female Spirit, whereas The Father is a Male Spirit...and that these two Spirits had a Male Child=Jesus. Is that what you are belieivng? If so, it major league wrong....and do you also believe that Mary is The Holy Spirit, as I have heard some others try to teach in recent years? I hope not.
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#6
I see the Holy Trinity as One Infinite Self awareness. I see each human being as made in the image of the Holy Trinity. A finite version of course. The Father is Supreme Will, the cause of all causes, the designer. The Son is the Word, actively creating based upon the Will speaking it. Now the Holy Spirit is special. The Holy Spirit is the ACTIVE CREATION as it occurs according to the Will and Word. We see this in a Human as the Human Thinking about something, talking about something and then finally doing something. Not the perfect analogy but close. Essentially I see the Holy Trinity as humanities best attempt to understand incomprehensible infinite entity as best we can. As far as assigning gender roles, if the Father is the action potential, isn't the action manifestation (holy spirit) a polar opposite? The Schechinah was always spoken of as God's female aspect. In any case this has been something I have been thinking about, please don't think that I am actively propogating this principle.
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#7
Wow, I thought I heard it all.
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#8
Chuck, remember that Christ is God, true God of true God. Also remember that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father only.
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#9
Alan G77 Wrote:Chuck, remember that Christ is God, true God of true God. Also remember that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father only.

Shlama:
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. Yeshua said, " All that the Father has is mine", and He said, "If I go I will send Him (the Holy Spirit) unto you". Yeshua also said, "I and my Father are One".

Shlama,
Stephen
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#10
Understood TVB,

We can ponder these things, but to become dogmatic about them is a mistake. In any case, we must never try teach that there is more than 1 God, as if there are two or three individual beings/persons who are God. There is only One who is such revealed to us in Scripture...and He has an only Begotten Son, who took a body and soul from humanity, in order to be our redemption.

Yes Allan, that is what the Creed states...and I ponder the Statement made here, when Jesus said "if i don't go away, the Advocate will not come to you, but if I go, I will send Him to you." John 16:7 Also this verse in the same book says that The Father will send Him. John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

We see there that it is the Father who sends The Holy Spirit/The Spirit of Truth/The Spirit of Jesus, in the Name of His Son. And here, Jesus says that He asks The Father to send His Holy Spirit...John 14:16 "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you forever..." Physically Jesus was leaving them, but His Spirit, The Spirit of Truth, would be sent by The Father in Christ's Name...I believe that The Holy Spirit IS the Spirit of Jesus and His Father, they being ONE SPIRIT.

Notice these two verses below.

Jesus answered him, ?If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and WE will come to him and make our home with him.

Romans 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

You see that? The Holy Spirit IS the Spirit of God, The Father, AND The Spirit of Christ, His Son...They being ONE Spirit...and They dwell IN us, in and by Their Holy Spirit, who dwells within us. There is no female or male deity, in a human sense, but it is ONLY GOD, who IS SPIRIT, who dwells within HIS Temple/People.


Blessings,
Chuck
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#11
Thirdwoe, I do appreciate your insight. Let me share something I wrote a bit ago, when I was going through a "Binitarian" phase.

Quote:Pondering the Holy Trinity

The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit

As I understand it, many view the Holy Trinity as a Co-Equality of three distinct persons. They view the Father as a Person, the Son as a Person and the Holy Spirit as a person, basically three "Faces" of the same being. This makes sense on some levels. If you think about this as how the Lord manifests himself in Reality, this sounds perfect. The Father glorified the Son as the Holy Spirit alited upon his head. Upon further inspection, this shows something far removed from three distinct persons that are co-equal.

Jesus states that He is one with his Father, that the Son is in the Father. To me this shows that Jesus, the Son, is "Rooted" in the Father, Also Jesus says that the Holy Spirit is sent by the Father in Jesus' name. To me this shows ONE PERSON, (The Father) manifesting a Hidden Aspect of himself (The Son) and, sharing his Holy Spirit, to those who have come to let the Son live within them.

Co-equality has been removed from the equation if you follow my logic.

The Son is part of the Father, as we the followers of Christ are part of the Son, we receive the Holy Spirit of the Father by the Father's will for venerating the Son and letting him abide within us (by following his commands, just as he followed the commands of his Father)

To call the Trinity Co-equal and Co-Substantial does not hold up to me.

Furthermore, There is a "Duality" in my opinion. The Father and Son have a relationship that is pre-existent.

The Holy Spirit is the Physical Manifestation that occurs when the Creation fully understands this relationship. The Father and The Son are a unity that has a distinction in the sense that the Father "Creates" Through the Son. IE, The Son is the "Right Arm" of the Father, Fully divine, yet able to Manifest in a Physical Reality without Destroying it. In a sense, the Holy Spirit revolves around Jesus. The work he did, we continue in His name. (His Holy Ghost?)

Finally, Jesus says he shares his Fathers will. At no point does he mention the "Will" of the Holy Spirit. As I understand it, the Father will anoint and baptize with the Holy Spirit at his discretion in the Father's name. To me this reinforces that the Holy Spirit depends on the Father via the Proxy of the Son

As it turns out though, it is a HOLY TRINITY. I began to recieve "visions almost" of a Trinity fomation whenever I would close my eyes. The Holy Spirit is equal but "Distinct" from the Father or Son.
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#12
Again, Pondering is fine, but we must check our ideas with what has been revealed by God, in His Word. And on the "Trinity", it has been shown that one can make a case for a number of positions by what is said in Scripture.

Jesus worshiped God, prayed to Him, obeyed His will, and continues as our Chief Priest, making intercession for us to The Father, which Jesus refers to as His God, and our God. He proceded forth from the bossom of The Father, before all time and creation, and when the time came for our redemtion to be paid, He took on humanity, in the Person of Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten of God/The Father, both spiritually, soulical, and physical. He is The Father's offspring.

Now, how this works is a huge mystery...and we only have as much as God has revealed to us in His word, and through His creation of mankind in His own image and likeness.

But this idea, that there are 3 co-eternally existing "persons" or beings, who make up what is called "God", as if God is a three faced deity, with 3 wills, and 3 minds and such, is someting that I have not found at all taught in Scripture. I believe that some Greek teachers of the 4th-6th century took their ponderings too far in this respect, and added some Greek mythology into their mix.

The Scriptures teach that God is Spirit...and that The Spirit of God, The Father and Christ, His Son, is The Holy Spirit, which indwells us, His Temple/People. When we try to make 3 Spirits...then we are off on the wrong path of understading I believe.

And to bring this back to The Aramaic Peshitta, which this website is all about...The Aramaic Scriptures, show the least amount of confusion in this regard...it cleary shows how it is, better than the Greek translations of it has.

Its an interesting subject for sure...but lets not divide as others have chosen to do...that is not God's will.
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#13
Stephen Silver Wrote:
Alan G77 Wrote:Chuck, remember that Christ is God, true God of true God. Also remember that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father only.

Shlama:
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. Yeshua said, " All that the Father has is mine", and He said, "If I go I will send Him (the Holy Spirit) unto you". Yeshua also said, "I and my Father are One".

Shlama,
Stephen

Stephen, the Church of the East does not affirm this, never has and never will.

The Spirit proceeds from the Father, and yes I know Yeshua is one with the Father.

New American Standard Bible (?1995)
"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,

Maybe post the entire verse next time brother.
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#14
Thirdwoe Wrote:Yes Allan, that is what the Creed states...and I ponder the Statement made here, when Jesus said "if i don't go away, the Advocate will not come to you, but if I go, I will send Him to you." John 16:7 Also this verse in the same book says that The Father will send Him. John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

We see there that it is the Father who sends The Holy Spirit/The Spirit of Truth/The Spirit of Jesus, in the Name of His Son. And here, Jesus says that He asks The Father to send His Holy Spirit...John 14:16 "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you forever..." Physically Jesus was leaving them, but His Spirit, The Spirit of Truth, would be sent by The Father in Christ's Name...I believe that The Holy Spirit IS the Spirit of Jesus and His Father, they being ONE SPIRIT.

Notice these two verses below.

Jesus answered him, ?If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and WE will come to him and make our home with him.

Romans 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

You see that? The Holy Spirit IS the Spirit of God, The Father, AND The Spirit of Christ, His Son...They being ONE Spirit...and They dwell IN us, in and by Their Holy Spirit, who dwells within us. There is no female or male deity, in a human sense, but it is ONLY GOD, who IS SPIRIT, who dwells within HIS Temple/People.


Blessings,
Chuck

Hi Chuck,

Be careful not to use scripture to advocate for your own thoughts, this is what Protestants do and we see the mess because of it.

I am not saying the Holy Spirit is separate from Christ, but it is from the Father from which the spirit proceeds and when Jesus states that He will send the Spirit He is reiterating that He is equal with the Father (Jesus continually speaks of being equal with the Father in the gospel of John). Remember that the Son is one Qnuma of the trinity, and He is preserved in His Kyanah (nature) so although God is one, He is also a trinity,
three Qnume, one will and one in essence.

The terms 'proceed' and 'sent or send' imply different meanings, although Christ sends the Spirit the Spirit Himself proceeds from the Father and that is what the Nicean creed stipulates and that is what the ACOE affirms.
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#15
Paul Younan Wrote:
TrueVineBranch Wrote:Some Early Syriac writings do portray the Holy Spirit as being feminine. I do appreciate your reply.

Hi TrueVineBranch,

Welcome to the forum. In Aramaic, as in many languages, nouns have a grammatical gender. It is a somewhat strange concept to English speakers as this is not common in English. It is a feature of other European languages, most notably French.

In Aramaic, the word "spirit" is feminine in gender, grammatically speaking. That doesn't mean that a spirit is feminine. Of course a spirit is neither male nor female in gender.

Due to the grammar, many early (and modern) Aramaic writers played on this feature of the language for dramatic effect. Often times, you will read early Aramaic poems that refer to the Holy Spirit with feminine features (especially in adjectives and verbs). That is because the grammar of the language demands it. Verbs will also reflect this, because in Aramaic a verb must agree with the noun in gender, number and person.

Be careful not to read too much into this. The Holy Spirit is of course neither male nor female - that's a matter of X and Y chromosomes, a strictly human differentiation.

+Shamasha


Shlama akhi,

very good points. i know i've found Moses refer to the Father as a "feminine" "YOU" in Numbers 11:15 in the Hebrew, and then the Cherub spoken of in Ezekiel 28:14 also is addressed with a feminine "YOU," so it does happen from time to time in Hebrew, as well, but it doesn't mean that the Creator is a woman, or that Satan (i'm guessing that's who the Cherub became) is also a woman. there are some other interesting places. Moses i think is even referred to with a feminine pronoun once, if i remember correctly!

to all who are in the process of learning a new language, from one student to another: a new language should really come be approached with as much preconceptions and linguistic assumptions stripped away as possible, because every language has its own nuances and descriptive abilities which need to be processed and understood in light of that particular language and culture.


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
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