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Judges 6:13-15
#1
So I have been doing a study on vs15 as there seems to be a contradiction between the MT and the LXX. So far I know that the Masoretic Hebrew renders "my lord" as Adonai. The LXX disagrees and renders it as "kurios mou - my lord" which agrees with vs13. I know that the Targum Yonatan agrees with the MT as the yud-yud abbreviation for the divine name is present.

But what does the Syriac say on Judges 6:13-15? Does the Syriac use the divine name equivalent as well?

I don't read Syraic so any help would be appreciated.
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#2
Adonai is used many times in supplications such as this one (i.e. "Biy Adonai ..."); this is caused greatly by the possessive conjugation of the word. There are points at which the NAME is euphamized to Adonai, but it is unlikely to be the case in this verse. I recently did a brief scan through some verses in the Targums, and it seems that the targumists replace have YY in more places than I think probable. It's tough to ascertain how the original may have read in some points regarding YHWH vs Adonai. The Syriac agrees with the literal meaning of the LXX and the MT in this case, namely "My master".
See also how the targumists and LXX translate "Adonai YHWH" (also the same is the case in the Syriac).
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#3
Thanks for the response Aaron. A couple questions and points.

What Targums did you find Judges 6:15 in? The only Targum I saw that had the verse was TarJonathan. Also, doesn't the yud-yud abbreviation support the use of Adonai in the MT?

I guess I would like to perhaps set up a list of those MSS that support either the translation of Adonai (MT) or Adoni (LXX) in Judges 6:15, and what these MSS are dated at. Not that acquiring the dates proves that an earlier date is the correct translation, but just for reference.

Support Adonai in Judges 6:15
- Masoretic Text - Adonai - Approx 9th century CE
- Targum Yonatan - 'yud-yud' - Approx 1st century CE (perhaps even around or before the DSS)


Support Adoni in Judges 6:15
- Septuagint (LXX) - Adoni (kurios mou) - 3rd century BCE to 1st century CE
- Peshitto OT (POT) - 'mry' - Approx 1st century CE
- Latin Vulgate - 'Domine' - Late 4th century CE


What other MSS can we add to the whether they support Adonai or Adoni for Judges 6:15? And is what is on the list now correct?

From my personal point of view I believe the MT got it correct. The reason being is that the context tells us that God jumps in at vs. 14 which gives Gideon reason to say Adonai in answering God directly. I also suppose that Adoni could also be used, as Gideon could have been responding back the the Angel (vs. 13 - adoni), God's representative, in answering God.
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#4
I see what you mean... I was thinking you were trying to differentiate between Adonai and YHWH, wherein the targums are of no use.
Targum Yonathan is the only one available for Judges. For completeness, it should be mentioned that the Vulgate follows the LXX & Peshitta reading.
I believe the correct interpretation of what CAL shows for Targum Yonathan is that certain ms(s) read YY, other(s) read Riboni, and other(s) read Adoni (unvoweled: significant?).
As far as chronology, I think that the Peshitta and the Targum also arose around 1st century CE, and the Vulgate later.
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#5
Thanks, I'll add the Vulgate to the list. The Vulgate could have been influenced by the reading from the LXX as we know Jerome was very familiar with the LXX and may have used it to help him translate from the Hebrew. He may have found the same issues we are talking about now, and chose to use the LXX's translation if he felt it more superior or used it more often.

Also, I discovered that in George Lamsa's translation of the OT Aramaic Peshitto into English, that he does in fact write 'LORD' in vs.15, rather than 'Lord', which would signify he believes it to support Adonai. I find this surprising. Perhaps he understood context that way even though, from what I know, it is not written that way in the Syraic. Maybe a slip of hand? Here is the link to his English translation... <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/OTtools/LamsaOT/7_judges.htm">http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/OTtools/ ... judges.htm</a><!-- m -->

Also, the TarJon results on CAL showing "reboni" and "adoni" may just be signifying variants from other MSS (not the targum itself) - If you notice, the yud-yud abbreviation is not included in the quotations. Also, I found a site with Judges of TarJon that does not include 'reboni' or 'adon' in the text. Only the 'y-y' sacred name is present in vs.15... <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://sites.google.com/site/targumjonathan/Home/Judges">http://sites.google.com/site/targumjonathan/Home/Judges</a><!-- m --> No doubt the TarJon uses y-y

Perhaps the CAL source results left 'adon' unvoweled in vs.15 most likely because MSS differ on the usage.

Yes, the Vulgate is said to be written in the late 4th century.

I also been doing some reading in that perhaps the TarJon could be a much earlier date than the widely held 1 century CE because Aramaic Targumic texts were found along side the Dead Sea Scrolls. This could suggest the TarJon rendering of the sacred name could in fact pre-date that of the LXX. Which could also mean the translators of the LXX, translating from a vowel-less Hebrew, could have mistranslated the use of 'Adon' in vs.15. I could see how this could happen given that the Angel appears in vs.13 and is given called by the title 'Adoni', and only two verses later in vs.15 (with the Angel still present), the translators made the mistake of translating the word to 'Adoni' as they would have assumed Gideon was referring back to the Angel (representative), and not to God. Or, perhaps Adoni is the correct translation and Gideon was indeed answering the representative rather than to answer God directly. But I am still more inclined to believe that Adonai is the proper vocalization.
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#6
I wouldn't take Lamsa's capitalization here to be of any significance... his text reads in a few places 'my LORD', an impossible construct in both Aramaic and Hebrew. It would appear that he just capitalizes it when it refers to YHWH.
Beyond that, you have spoken good words. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
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#7
Right, but why wouldn't Lamsa just write it as "my Lord" as he did two verses earlier in vs 13? It's the same Aramaic phrase being used in vs13 and vs15.

Did he have a MSS that we don't know about? Or did he simply translate based more upon context, how he understood the passage, rather than by exact words?
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#8
:

Judges 6:15 should read YHWH, which is the Original reading which was changed, along with 134 other places in the Hebrew Scriptures by the Masoretic scribes.

Here is the list of the Massoretic changes from YHWH to Adonai in the Hebrew Bible.

The official list of the 134 places where the Massoretes changed "YHWH" to "Adonai" is
given in the Massorah (?? 107-15, Ginsburg's edition)

The 134 Places

Genesis 18:3, 27, 30, 32; 19:18; 20:4.
Exodus 4:10, 13; 5:22; 15:17; 34:9, 9.
Numbers 14:17.
Joshua 7:8.
Judges 6:15; 13:8.
1Kings 3:10, 15; 22:6.
2Kings 7:6; 19:23.
Isaiah 3:17,18; 4:4;6:1,8,11; 7:14,20; 8:7; 9:8,17; 10:12; 11:11; 21:6,8,16; 28:2; 29:13; 30:20; 37:24; 38:14,16; 49:14.
Ezekiel 18:25, 29; 21:13; 33:17, 29.
Amos 5:16; 7:7, 8; 9:1.
Zechariah 9:4.
Micah 1:2.
Malachi 1:12, 14.
Psalm 2:4; 16:2; 22:19,30; 30:8; 35:3,17,22; 37:12; 38:9,15,22; 39:7; 40:17; 44:23;
51:15; 54:4; 55:9; 57:9; 59:11; 62:12; 66:18; 68:11,17,19,22,26,32; 73:20; 77:2,7; 78:65; 79:12;
86:3,4,5,8,9,12,15; 89:49,50; 90:1,17; 110:5; 130:2,3,6.
Daniel 1:2; 9:3, 4, 7, 9,15,16,17,19,19,19.
Lamentations 1:14,15,15; 2:1,2,5,7,18,19,20; 3:31,36,37,58.
Ezra 10:3.
Nehemiah 1:11; 4:14.
Job 28:28.
To these may be added the following, where "Elohim" was treated the same way:
2Samuel 5:19-25; 6:9-17
{ Where the KJV says "LORD."
1Chronicles 13:12; 14:10, 11, 14, 16; 16:1.
Psalm 14:1, 2, 5; 53:1, 2, 4, 5.}
This is where, in the Authorized Version and Revised Version the Name still appears as "God". It is printed "GOD" in the Companion Bible.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_David_Ginsburg">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_David_Ginsburg</a><!-- m -->

Blessings,
Chuck
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#9
Thanks so much for this one! <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
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#10
Thanks Chuck, that definitely helps the case that adoni is not the correct translation of Lord in Judges 6:15.

I have also found that the old latin disagrees with the Vulgate's 'domine me.'

Also, the LXX codex Alexandrinus does not use 'kurios mou - my lord' contrary to the codex Sinaiticus and codex Vaticanus. This shows a lack of agreement in the LXX MSS.

Also, if you contrast how the Syraic Peshitta and the agreeing LXX MSS translate 'Bi Adonai' in Judges 13:8 they are not consistent in their translation with Judges 6:15.

I'll update my list above later as to the new MSS.
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#11
:

Thanks to Brother Stephen Silver for giving it to me the other day. I had 1st heard about this from Brother David Bauscher in his translation (thanks too Dave) and had asked Stephen about it, and he supplied the list and the link.

..
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#12
For those interested, I have written a paper on the Masoretic vocalization of Judges 6 from a non-Trinitarian perspective... <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://lhim.org/blog/2012/02/02/judges-6-and-the-hebrew-masoretic-vocalization-of-adny-trinitarian-arguments-challenged/">http://lhim.org/blog/2012/02/02/judges- ... hallenged/</a><!-- m -->
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