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question of translation James letter 2
Hello again,
Is there any one who can give me the Peshitta version (please in English translation!) <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: --> for letter of James, chapter 2, vers 18? In the general German Bible translation (Luther) and English KJ-version it sounds strange to me in the context, conserning the exchange of the Personal Pronounce "you" and "me" at the beginning of that vers.

Thanks a lot!
Saying thus a-man to-thee, "Being to-thee a-faith, and-to-me, being to-me the-works. Show-me thy-faith of-not the-works, and-myself, so-showing I-am to-thee my-faith from my-works."

- James 2:18

In modern US English, the pronouns would read like this.

Saying thus a man to you, "Being to you a faith, and to me, being to me the works. Show me your faith of not the works, and myself, so showing I am to you my faith from my works."
Hello Jerry,
Thanks a lot for your help and efforts.
Literal Translation from Peshitta:

James 2: 18

For a man will say to you, You have faith and I have works. Show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works.
If it were literal, it would not add or delete words.

This the "literal" Peshitta verse:

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-omar ... saying
`geyr ... thus
-nosh ... a-man
lok ... to-you
-iyth ... being
lok ... to-you
hay:monuwtho- ... a-faith
w:liy ... and-to-me
-iyth ... being
liy ... to-me
'bode- ... the-works
chawony ... show-me
haymonuwthok ... your-faith
`d:lo- ... of-not
'bode- ... the-works
we-no- ... and-myself
m:chawe- ... so-showing
-no- ... I-am
lok ... to-you
haymonuwthy ... my-faith
men ... from
'boday ... my-works
The only "literal verse" is the Peshitta verse itself. All translations are an approximation of the source text, some get closer than others.
Dani Wrote:Hello Jerry,
Thanks a lot for your help and efforts.
You're welcome, Dani. Hopefully I have not confused you with the pronouns even more than before. They can be confusing at times.
Shlama Jerry,

I would consider rendering the Aramaic "being to you" as "you have" a literal translation because "being to you" is not English, but is simply the only way an Aramaic speaker can express the notion of possession.

Dani, I think the point of confusion is that, to make sense, the quote needs to extend through the whole verse, rather than ending after "I have deeds" as in the NIV and many other translations.

bar Sinko
bar Sinko, that is an interesting observation.

Numerous times, I have attempted to use "having" for the Aramaic word "iyth". True enough, it works fine in many instances, but not in some others. I do believe strongly that "being" is the intent of the Aramaic word. Even though it may not be the best fit in all instances (vs. "having). But never-the-less, "being" does fit all contexts, whereas "having" falls short in some.

So for the sake of consistency, and of my own belief on the subject, I render "iyth" as "being"; but your point is well taken.

As far as I know, "iyth" does mean "being", but "iyth l-" is a construction to mean "having", because there is no other way to express that.

bar Sinko
bar Sinko Wrote:Jerry,

As far as I know, "iyth" does mean "being", but "iyth l-" is a construction to mean "having", because there is no other way to express that.

bar Sinko
bar Sinko, you make a valid point on the "l-" being indicative of a possessive trait. Where we may differ some is that I think both "being to-you" and "having to-you" are adequate expressions of that trait.

You had said earlier that "being to-you" is "not English". I'm not so sure I agree with that, but I have no problem with it being rendered as "having to-you", if that is one's preference.
Hi All,

In Russian there also is no common use of 'to have'. It also litterally translates as e.g. 'With me is a book'. No translator, would translate such russian syntax this way to English <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> At least, not that I know of.
Hello, dear friends,
Now I saw from your translations, that the difficulty in the German M. Luther and the English KJ translation is just that, there is no expressive mentioning of
"... to you" at the beginning of vers 18 (some one could say TO YOU), which makes the understanding of the whole context difficult. So now, by your help, i got it.

Othervice its true, in Russian one uses "u menya yest" as "I have (got)",
for instance: "u menya yest sestra" / "I have / got a sister".

Thanks and Beye

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