Kabbalah

[borota]

I was listening to one of the webinars that are posted here <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.aent.org/video.htm">http://www.aent.org/video.htm</a><!-- m --> where Andrew Roth is the main speaker.
He was talking about Kabbalah and made the assertion that Paul was versed in it....

I don't know what to make of this, I heard numerous Christian leaders saying that Kabbalah is Babylonian mystery occultism and as such doesn't have much in common with traditional Judaism or Christianity. I haven't studied Kabbalah at all for that reason.

I am interested to learn as much as I can about the origins of Christianity and for that reason I undertook to learn Hebrew, Greek and now Aramaic.
All I know of Kabbalah is what I heard from various Christian leaders and the fact the Madonna is (or used to) practice it. Does Kabbalah have any relevance to Christianity at all?

[Havah]

Of course. Kabbalah is a connection with God.

In Rabbinic Judaism, the Ribbi use 4 ways to interpret scriptures
"PaRDeS". I'll just copy it from wikipedia:
Peshat ? "plain" ("simple") or the direct meaning.
Remez ? "hints" or the deep (allegoric: hidden or symbolic) meaning beyond just the literal sense.
Derash ? from Hebrew darash: "inquire" ("seek") ? the comparative (midrashic) meaning, as given through similar occurrences.
Sod ? "secret" ("mystery") or the mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.

Here, the way "Sod" is a direct reference to Kabbalah.

However, one must know there are at least three major Kabbalistic development in medieval Europe:
1. Qabbalah: occult Kabbalah
2. Cabbalah: Christian Kabbalah
3. Kabbalah: Jewish Kabbalah

But this is just too simple to explain.

Maybe you should have a clear understanding about the word "Kabbalah" in the eye of Netzarim.
http://www.mashiyach.com/kabbalah.htm
It is not a reference to the Book of Zohar or Tarot or Astrology. Rather, it is a present of God from above give you.

And one must remember these little secret gifts are not making us getting more "saved". We are saved because of faith in God and his Messiah.

[borota]

Oh, I am all for this kind of kabbalah, we all need it.
Thanks for making that clear to me.

[Tonga]

There used to be certain standards one should meet before studying kabbalah- had to be at least 40 years old, had to be married, had to be a Torah scholar.
Did Paul meet all those requirements?

How does Andrew Gabriel Roth know that Paul studied kabbalah?
Kabbalah was developed centuries after the existence of Paul....so how could he have studied it?

[Havah]

There used to be certain standards one should meet before studying kabbalah- had to be at least 40 years old, had to be married, had to be a Torah scholar.
Did Paul meet all those requirements?

How does Andrew Gabriel Roth know that Paul studied kabbalah?
Kabbalah was developed centuries after the existence of Paul....so how could he have studied it?

You're dead wrong.
Kabbalah isn't a book of Zohar or Bahir or Sefer Yetzirah.
In fact, there is Kabbalistic element in Ezekiel 1, Book of Daniel and so on.
Can somebody reveal him the hidden meaning of our forefather from Adam to Noah? This ancestral record is also a form of Kabbalah, if you can get the meaning behind their names.

Hidden body of Moses, trip to heaven by Enoch and Elijah, everything weird in the Scriptures can be understood if we're having Kabbalistic time with God.

Also, the Essenes who lived 2000 years ago were Kabbalists in nature.
It's believed that there was an Essene Av Beit Din called Menahem, who taught mysticism to the Beit Din in his last days.

Of course we may doubt how holy their kabbalah is. But their Kabbalah is Kabbalah.

[Burning one]

Shlama,


for what it is worth, i've studied the written Kabbalah (the Jewish form) quite extensively, and as one who has been blessed to learn Hebrew and read the Word in that language, i couldn't more strongly suggest spending your time learning Hebrew and leaving the Kabbalistic teachings alone. for me personally, there was only a couple "insights" that i found of any real "value" theologically / philosophically in the Kabbalah -- everything else was of no real significance - merely speculation. and if you're reading something that speaks of how it can be "applied," or what is known as "practical Kabbalah" -- RUN AWAY. that's witchcraft and an abomination, even if cloaked in Hebrew terminology.

99.99% of what is called Kabbalah out there is full of it, and the little that isn't won't be worth your time, trust me. i spent years studying it, and there was always the esoteric, just-out-of-reach promise of something enlightening, but never the manifestation of it. spend your time in the WORD itself, let the Ruwkha lead you to the amazing discoveries in the text; learn Hebrew and be astonished -- please don't waste your time on the written Kabbalah!



from one who's been there and glad to be back,
Jeremy

[Thirdwoe]

The Holy Spirit dwelling in you by God's will...is the ONLY "Kabbalah" one needs.

[Luc Lefebvre]

Well, kabbalah simply means "to recieve", and judging by some of Paul's writings, I'd say a fair amount was indeed revealed to him (perhaps when he was in the third heaven? Although this is just an assumption). I think what Andrew was getting at though was that elements of all ten sefirot can be found within Paul's writings. This definitely caught my interest as it may show that at the very least these concepts existed in some form during the first century and were rooted in some sort of truth. The language of the Peshitta is likely the link that Andrew would be expounding on, but as he never did the teaching, I can only speculate. I would certainly be interested in seeing what he has to say.

And the later Rabbinical qualifications for studying kabbalah (married, over 40, etc.) I'm pretty sure were later halachic developments in the middle ages.

EDIT - 22 minutes into the following new interview with Andrew, he begins addressing this issue - <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://soulsaver.podomatic.com/entry/2011-11-14T17_45_27-08_00">http://soulsaver.podomatic.com/entry/20 ... 5_27-08_00</a><!-- m -->