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Good Wednesday or Good Friday?
I don't know what you're getting at rramlow, but Alan, that is the most complete and beautiful explanation I have ever read about the Sabbath and Sunday worship. I have literally not heard a satisfactory explanation until I read this post today. Thank you!

bar Sinko
Alan, I must second bar Sinko. I thought I would be the first to say thank you, but he got to read this earlier than me. You must have a gift for teaching, which I don't. Thank you!

It amazes me, where all this is coming from and with such intensity and such acrimony and venom - that we now must go back under the Law and stuff. I thought all these "wars" were already fought in the first century and settled as clear as it can be.

I have 2 friends who were completely taken over by this new wave. They are so full of hate, pride and disdain towards all Christian, that it just amazes me how couldn't they see they are NOT in the Spirit of humbleness, humility and such.
There are those who would try to make believe that they keep the whole Law, without breaking one of the smallest points of it... But they are fooling themselves, and break many points of it everyday...and since they break one single point...they have broken every single The Scriptures teach. And thus according to their false doctrine, are found to be Law Breakers, which they condemn Christians as being.

But, don't they know....that The Curse of the Law has been broken forever in what The Messiah has done, He by fullfilling the whole Law for us, to secure our salvation, which we could not secure ourselves by any actions or efforts we might be able to muster?

We died in Him, was buried In Him, and was raised from the dead In Him...We have passed from death unto Life already...and are even now seated with The Messiah In Heaven.

Those that think that they are pleasing to God by trying to attain righteousness through keeping some of the laws of the former Covenant are decieving themselves...being ignorant of the righteousness of God that comes through Faith in The Messiah..and who do not rest in His finished work...

God has written the Law of The Messiah upon His peoples hearts, and they walk in the Holy Spirit's power...God working in them the Life of Christ....these producing the fruits of the Holy Spirit in their lives in an ever increasing measure. They not being law breakers, but rather upholding the the Spirit of the Law, in Loving God with all their hearts, mind, and strength and loving their fellow man as they love themselves, with the Love of The Messiah that is expressing itself in and through them, He being their Life.

Thank you all for your kind words, it is the Lords doing and not mine.

There are times that we need to stand up and defend our position regarding the faith, we are told to always have an answer and some people may not appreciate what you tell them. But truly I say that if the Christians got it wrong so early in the first century, then KHASLEE to say but it would indicate that Christ failed in His mission, which is impossible.
Thirdwoe Wrote:This is for the "RAT"...

Just an observation and a question for you:

Since it is written that if a person breaks the smallest part of The Law, they are guilty of breaking the whole of it...then, if you are breaking one law, you are breaking the whole law...You said that you keep this part and that, are you saying that you keep every part...and break nothing? If not, then you are not keeping any part of the Law...But are breaking the whole of it.

1Jn_1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of Yahuwah,
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the Law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the Law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 6:1 What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 Let it not be! We who have died to sin, how shall we still live in it?
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Yahu-Shuah The Anointed One our Master.
Joh 16:7 But I tell you the truth, it is better for you that I should go; for if I do not go away, the redeemer will not come to you. But if I go, I will send Him to you.
Joh 16:8 And having come, that One will convict the world concerning sin,
1Jn_3:4 Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the Law: for sin is the transgression of the Law.
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that we should no longer serve sin.
Rom_7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom_7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Rom_7:20 Now if I do that which I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Gal_2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by The Anointed One, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore The Anointed One the minister of sin? Far be it.
Rom_7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom_7:25 I thank Ailoheem through Yahu-Shauh The Anointed One our Master. So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of Ailoheem; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Rom_6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
Rom_6:16 Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
1Jn 2:1 My little children, I write these things to you so that you do not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Yahu-Shuah The Anointed One The Righteous.
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation relating to our sins, and not relating to ours only, but also relating to all the world.
1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have known Him, if we keep His commandments.
1Jn 2:4 The one saying, I have known Him, and not keeping His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in that one.
1Jn 2:5 But whoever keeps His Word, truly in this one the love of Yahuwah has been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him.
1Jn 2:6 The one claiming to rest in Him, ought to walk, himself, even as He walked.
1Jn 2:7 Brothers, I do not write a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the Word which you have heard from the beginning.
Mat 22:37 And Yahu-Shuah said to him, "You shall love Yahuwah your Ailoheem with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." [Deut. 6:5]
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like it "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." [Lev.19:18]
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments all the Torah and the Prophets hang.
Mat 5:17 Do not think that I came to annul the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to annul, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 Truly I say to you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, in no way shall one yod or one stroke pass away from the Law until all comes to pass.
Mat 5:19 Therefore, whoever loosens one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the worst in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever does and teaches them, this one shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.
Heb_10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,

All the Law hangs under two commandments that are not new but of old, love Yahuwah and love thy neighbor. The 10 commandments hang under these two. The first 4 relate to how we are to relate to Yahuwah and the last six show how we should relate to our neighbors (people other than ourselves). The rest of the Law hangs under these 10 (e.g. ? food laws, etc..). The Shabbath commandment has to do with our relationship with Yahuwah. Sin seperated us from Yahuwah. Yahu-Shuah came to restore us back unto a right relationship with Yahuwah. The Law never was for salvation, it' soul purpose was to show us what sin was and or is not. Sin is transgression of the Law, which means anything that we do that goes against what the Law says we should be doing in order to be in right relationship with Yahuwah and or neighbors. The Law says to keep the Shabbawth, therefore not keeping the Shabbath is to not be in right relationship with Yahuwah and therefore is a sin plain and simple. Salvation [restoring us back into right relationship with Yahuwah] comes by putting faith in that Yahu-Shuah came to restore us by being the sacrifice for or sin, yet we are not to just go on sinning willfully. In order to gain this salvation we are to not only have faith that Yahu-Shuah came to save us but to follow His instructions which was to repent of our sins by turning from them and asking forgiveness. This restoration did not include allowing us to go on being in a wrong relationship with Yahuwah and our neighbors. We are to be taught by the Set-Apart Spirit not to transgress the Law which Yahuwah through The Set-Apart Spirit will write upon our hearts (the same Law that was written in stone and sheep skins). Whereby leading us to want to keep the Shabbath, as well as not kill, or steal, etc... Just because one is saved does not give them a free reign to transgress the Law, Heaven forbid. Yahu-Shuah did not come to do away with the Law, it will remain until it has done all that it was intended to do. It was to show us what sin is so that we could repent, not to gain salvation though observance. Salvation for Abrawhawm was by faith in The Anointed One as was with Moshay. The Law (still today) shows us when we are sinning and need to repent. Just because one is saved does not mean that the Law is no longer relevant, and that they can no longer transgress the Law. The Law is just as much to show saved people when they need to repent as it does lost people that they need a savior. We are to repent of braking the Law not only as an obedient act to or savior, but to get back into a right relationship with Yahuwah (not for salvation itself). Even when a spirit brings a message if it does not line up with the WORD then we are to say to it "get thee far from me Sawtawn" and seek the Spirit that lines up with the WORD. The WORD says keep the Shabbawth. Yes saved people still need to repent on a daily basis of the violations of Law they commit, while seeking to live in right relationship with Yahuwah and their fellow man. If one is not in right relation with Yahuwah they can not be in right relation with people much less love themselves. Again part of being in right relationship with Yahuwah is to remember the Shabbawth and keep it as a Set-Apart Convocation. We know that we are saved by Yahu-Shuah by the fact that we begin walking as He walked. Yahu-Shuah keep every Shabbawth His whole life.

I have but given a small example of Scripture that prove we are to observe The Law not to gain salvation but as part of our restoration process unto Yahuwah.
But Mr. RAT,

You said: "In order to gain this salvation we are to not only have faith that Yahu-Shuah came to save us but to follow His instructions which was to repent of our sins by turning from them and asking forgiveness."

I see your problem there. You think that you can "gain this salvation".

Nope. It is a gift of God's Grace...not of works, lest any should boast.

P.S. if you have a regular name, I would be happy to adress you with it.

#97 seems that you have not understood what The Sabbath means.

It is not that we don't pick up a stick or make a fire with it to keep is that we stop trying to work on what is already completed.

The Messiah has already finished the work of salvation...we are called to rest in His finished work and not try to put our hand to it, as if we can help God save us.

Now, maybe you have the wrong impression of us?

Maybe you think that we go around willfully sinning and believing that we can walk in our old dead flesh nature, that The Messiah has crucified in His body on the tree...???

Not so. We walk in the Spirit, and have no confidence in the flesh...we consider ourselves dead to sin, but alive unto God.

It is no longer we who live, but The Messiah who is living His Life in and through us...we having passed from death unto Life.

Being Crucifeid, Buried, Risen, and now seated with The Messiah in the Heavens. This is our position IN The Messiah.

And there is NO CONDEMNATION for those who are IN The Messiah, who are IN Him, and He IN them.

Romans 8:1-9

1 Therefore, there is no condemnation to those that are not walking in the flesh, in Yeshu?a the Anointed One.
2 For the Instruction of the Ruwkha of Life that is in Yeshu?a the Anointed One has freed you from the instruction that is of sin and of death.
3 For because of the Instruction?s weakness in the hand of frail flesh, Alaha sent His Son in the pattern of flesh that was sinful, because of sin, to condemn sin in His flesh,
4 that the uprightness of the Instruction in us should be completed, that do not in the flesh have our walk, but instead, in the Ruwkh.
5 For those that are in the flesh, of the flesh they are thinking, and those that are of the Ruwkh, of the Ruwkh they are thinking.
6 For the thought of the flesh is death, and the thought of the Ruwkha is life and peace,
7 because the thoughts of the flesh are hostile towards Alaha, for unto the Instruction of Alaha it does not act, because it is not able,55
8 and those that are in the flesh, they are not able to be pleasing unto Alaha.
9 But you are not in the flesh, but rather, in the Ruwkh, if truly the Ruwkha of Alaha is inhabiting you. But if there is a man in whom there is not the Ruwkha of the Anointed One, this one is not His own.

Alan G77 Wrote:First of all my friend, for you to come here and not only put words into my mouth but also blatantly misrepresent the Assyrian Churches stance on the Law is dubious and insulting.

If you had a basic understanding of New Testament theological constructs you would conclude that the works of the Law is what I am actually referring to. According to you and the rest of the judaizer's that regularly visit these forums, you would have us believe that we must observe Old Testament laws in order to be saved.

Let us see what St Paul has to say...

1 [a]You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of [b]the Law, or by [c]hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun [d]by the Spirit, are you now [e]being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you [f]suffer so many things in vain?if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works [g]miracles among you, do it by the works of [h]the Law, or by [i]hearing with faith?

Do we pervert Gods moral law by rejecting the sabbath? No, the sabbath and the works of the law were fulfilled in Jesus Christ and through Him only are we able to discern what is moral or immoral. The law could not save men, if the law could save men then we would have no need for Jesus to have hung upon the Cross. When we are baptized and repent, the Holy Spirit is poured gracefully upon us and through Him we are taught and by Him do we understand that murder, rape, theft etc is against His commands.


first off, I never put words into your mouth, I only but asked if this is what you were implying as you made a blanket statement. Not my fault you where not specific whereby hard to grasp and needing clarified.

secondly, I have no idea of what the Assyrian Church' stance on the Law is, and did not try to represent it at all. When did I even mention Assyrian Church' stance on the Law, much less the Assyrian Church. If you are representing it that' not my problem, nor am I their' as I am not representing them much less any group of men only my Master and His Good News through His Apostles.

thirdly, it is you that has tried to put words into my mouth claiming that I said this and that. Something I never did to you. Again, I only but asked a question, I made no statements for you as you have tried to do for me. Please learn to speak for yourself. And by all means feel free to ask questions too.

fourthly, I am not offended that you did try to put words into my mouth whereby misrepresenting my Master because I battle against spirit not flesh, so know that you are forgiven, but the spirit that lead you to be offended and make such railing accusations against me I rebuke in the Authority of Yahu-Shuah my Master, son of Yahuwah Whom is Sovereign over all Creation.

Now that we got the niceties out of the way, I lay claim that you still did not clarify what you are trying to say, at least when it come to my itty bitty brain anyway. So let me see if I can guess as to what you are implying by "works of the law". That the Law is not done away with just the fact that we do not need to obey them anymore because that would be considered to be ?works of the flesh?(?). That Obeying the Law would equate to Works and they (works) are not required(?). Please correct me if I guest wrong to your less that specific statement(s). PLEASE BE SPECIFIC as broad statements are hard to grasp the full meaning thereof. Just whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat does "work of the law mean"?

As far as my conclusions about Salvation see my latest response to "Thirdwoe", and also the following (beings you asked) I hope that I am specific enough to leave no doubt as to what my Master and Savior claims we must do to gain salvation through Him.

[By the way I am not a judaizer and find that to be an offensive remark. Yet again I battle not the flesh but the spirit which led you, and therefore rebuke it for using such a curse word, while finding understanding towards you.]

Now being you only brought up a little bit of what Shaul [Paul] said about the Law, and being his saying are easily misunderstood, I thought it only proper to reply with more of the Gospel on the subject to help bring out what is actually being said by Shaul and the other Disciples of Yahu-Shuah The Anointed One. But first and please forgive me for using the Greek to make my point as I do not yet have an Aramaic translation with numbers to hunt it down in the dictionaries to figure out it definitions within The Aramaic language.

Nomos (Strong?s 3551) is the Greek word translated "law" in the (Greek) New Testament. Nomos has many definitions -- it can mean law of the land, any codified law/set of laws, a basic principle, and of course, it can mean Torah [Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah]. There was no specific Greek word for "legalism" and often nomos is used when Shaul [Paul] is referring to legalism -- since legalism itself is also a set of laws, nomos fits well there too.

Having defined law, it's time to define 'lawlessness.' In Greek, it is anomos -- that is, anti-law. Many called Christians tend to assume that every single instance of 'law' in the Scriptures can only mean Torah (above it is shown that is not true in all cases -- its a broad word); yet few stop to think of the ramifications. If 'law' can only mean Torah --- then what does "lawless' mean? Anti-Torah? In the case of lawlessness, I happen to agree that the Torah [Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah] is indeed meant -- that the sign of the end times would be "Torah-lessness." Many Christians often brag that they are "free from Law" not realizing that's just a seemingly nice way of saying "without law" or "having no law." (i.e. ? Lawless/workers of iniquity)

The argument is made by many Christians (with straight faces no less!) that Torah [Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah] was only given to show man how sinful he was, to show he could not keep Torah and that he needed a Savior. A few problems here. In the first place, Torah wasn't given to show us how sinful we were but how Set-Apart [Holy] Yahuwah our Ailoheem is. Yahuwah our Ailoheem said He gave Torah to show man how to live as a mikra ['called out'] people (note, "Congregation" and or "Assembly" are modern English translations of the Greek word ekklesia-- which also means mikra, that is, "Called Out Ones"). Torah is a lifestyle document. Many Christians would have you believe Yahuwah our Ailoheem gave Torah to His Chosen People so that He could later introduce "Grace" and then condemn His original Chosen People in favor of other nations (What?). If that was how Yahuwah our Ailoheem treated His Chosen Ones -- how much better will He treat His non-Chosen Ones? Would an Ailoheem of love deliberately give people a document they could not obey, and then condemn them for their expected failure? Yahu-Shuah [Yahu Saves] came 1500 years after Torah was given --- that's 1500 years of fruitless efforts to obey? No way!

When Yahuwah our Ailoheem gave the Torah [Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah], He promised blessings for obedience, punishments for disobedience. Yishra-Ail [Israel] did stray from Torah and received many punishments -- right up to being taken into captivity. If the Torah [Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah] wasn't keepable, if it was given only as a trick to show it couldn't be kept -- that would make Yahuwah our Ailoheem a sadist for punishing people for failing to do an impossible task that He set for them!

The Torah [Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah] was not given to show man couldn't keep it. To the contrary, Yahuwah our Ailoheem Himself declared the Torah was keepable! Yahuwah our Ailoheem said in Debarim [Deuteronomy] 30:11-14:
"For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off. It is not in Heaven, that thou should say: 'Who shall go up for us to Heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?' Neither is it beyond the sea that thou should say: 'Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?' But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou may do it."

The Torah [Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah] is keepable --- and there is no other. He has given it all here --- there is no other Torah up in Heaven or in the sea --- this is it! And it is keepable -- it is "not too hard for thee." Now if Yahuwah our Ailoheem says it is keepable, no man-made doctrine to the contrary should be accepted. There is not a single command given in the Torah that was impossible to keep. Man chooses to disobey -- the fault lies within man, not the Torah.

Was the Torah a temporary document until ?The Anointed One? came?

Torah NEVER states that it? end will come or that it will be changed later. Did Yahuwah our Ailoheem not foresee He would send an Anointed One? Indeed He did -- and realizing the lawless beliefs that would later come, Yahuwah our Ailoheem added a special clause to the Torah [Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah]:
{Debarim [Deuteronomy] 4:2} "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of Yahuwah your Ailoheem which I command you."
See also:
{Debarim [Deuteronomy] 12:32} "What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shall not add thereto, nor diminish from it."

Following this passage to not add to or take away from the Torah [Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah], is a warning against false prophets (Deuteronomy 13). A false prophet is *anyone* who comes teaching the people to disregard Yahuwah our Ailoheem' Torah[Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah]! Yahuwah our Ailoheem warns these false prophets will test the people's faithfulness to Him -- His people will instead "walk after Yahuwah our Ailoheem, and fear Him, and keep His commandments, and obey His voice, and ye shall serve Him, and cleave unto Him" (Debarim [Deuteronomy] 13:4). At the time of Yahu-Shuah [Yahu Saves], the only way to test those who claimed to be prophets of Yahuwah our Ailoheem was to compare what they taught to the teachings of the Torah - PERIOD! There was no other test! So when the Torah [Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah] is cast aside as irrelevant -- so is the foundation that proved Yahu-Shuah *is* The Anointed One.

Yahu-Shuah never taught against the Torah --- if he had, he would be considered a false prophet! Yahu-Shuah and the Torah cannot be contrary to each other -- each must validate the other. Be wary of man-made church doctrines espousing an "Anointed One" loosely based on the life of Yahu-Shuah HaMoshiach [The Anointed One] -- an "Anointed One" who is credited with turning the people away from the Torah [Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah]. The real Yahu-Shuah came "*not* to destroy the law (i.e.- The Torah), or the prophets: but to fulfill" (Mattith-Yahu 5:17 [Matthew]). Fulfill means to bring it to it fullest capacity as to what is written -- and -- not to abolish or change! Anyone teaching to 'take away' from the Torah is a false teacher and anyone adding to the Torah is a false teacher according to the Scriptures themselves.. Think about the arguments between Christianity and Yahu-Daism [Judaism] .... Ironically, for two-thousand years now, Yahuwah our Ailoheem has had four sets of people: Torah rejecting (so-called) believers; Yahu-Shuah rejecters who add man-made writings to the Torah [Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah]; Those whom believe that Yahu-Shuah came as the Torah incarnate and follow Torah [Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah] as well; and those that do not believe at all. Could either of these groups please Yahuwah our Ailoheem?

Is the Torah [Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah] Forever?
{Debarim [Deuteronomy] 7:9} "Know therefore that Yahuwah your Ailoheem, He is Ailoheem, the faithful Ailoheem, which keeps Covenant and mercy with them that love Him and keep His commandments to a thousand generations."

The Torah [Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah] declares itself to be everlasting -- forever. It's Shabbawths were appointed forever -- NOT just until The Anointed One came!
{Exodus 31:16} "Wherefore the children of Yishra-Ail shall keep the Shabbawth, to observe the Shabbawth throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant."
{Leviticus 24:8} "Every Shabbawth he shall set it in order before Yahuwah continually, being taken from the children of Yishra-Ail [Israel] by an everlasting Covenant."

All doctrines must be tested against the Torah for accuracy. If one holds a doctrine that contradicts the Torah [Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah] --- their doctrine is wrong --- and they are guilty of lawlessness. The Torah [Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah] is the foundation of the True Faith. Misunderstanding this fact leads to incorrect doctrines and a skewed mistaken view of Scripture. As Shaul [Paul] says "The Torah is Set-Apart [Holy], and the Commandment Set-Apart [Holy], and just, and good." (Romans 7:12)

Keep in mind that the only Scripture they had back when they were writing the New Testament was the Old Testament and the New Testament lays claim to the fact that:
2Ti 3:16 FOR all scripture which from the Spirit is written, is profitable for doctrine, and for rebuke, and for correction, and for instruction [Or, discipline.] which is in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 that the man of Ailoheem may be perfect unto every good work, and completed.

The sign of the end times is lawlessness ... are you a part of the apostasy or the Truth? Don't be lawless.

End Note: But Doesn't "Law of Christ" replace Torah?

Oddly, In the same breath many Christians claim Yahu-Shuah *is* Ailoheem, they manage to say the "Law [Torah] of Christ" is not the same as "Law [Torah] of Ailoheem". Many Christians claim the "Law [Torah] of Christ" is as follows: "And thou shall love the LORD thy Ailoheem with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these (Markos [Mark] 12:30,31).

However, these commands are not new, they are found in the Torah:
{Debarim [Deuteronomy] 6:5} And thou shall love Yahuwah your Ailoheem with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might"

{Leviticus 19:18} "Do not make attempts to get equal with one who has done you wrong, or keep hard feelings against the children of your people, but have love for your neighbor as for yourself: I am Yahuwah."

Further, Yahu-Shuah quoted these *after* quoting the Shema, a quintessential text of Yahu-Daism [Judaism] from Debarim [Deut] 6:4, "HEAR, O YISHRA-AIL: YAHUWAH OUR AILOHEEM, YAHUWAH IS ONE."

All the other Old Testament Laws/Torah/Instruction for righteous living with in the Kingdom of Yahuwah hang from these two Old Testament saying. The first four of the Ten Commandments hang under Love Yahuwah your Ailoheem, and the other six hang under love they neighbor as thyself. The rest of the Old Testament Laws/Torah/Instruction for righteous living with in the Kingdom of Yahuwah further hang under the ten Commandments.

Yahu-Shuah' Law [Torah] *is* Yahuwah' Law [Torah]. Where the Law [Torah] of The Anointed One differs isn't in regard to Yahuwah' Law [Torah], but man'. Were the Pharisees sought to malign the Old testament Law with their man made ideas so have many Christian sought to malign the Torah with their man made ideas. Yahu-Shuah came to correctly interpret the Torah [Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah] not to delete It. Man had added to Yahuwah' Law [Torah] in an attempt to fence and protect Yahuwah' Law [Torah], and in the process, parts of Yahuwah' Law [Torah] had been misunderstood. Yahu-Shuah helped define what the Law [Torah] was really teaching (The "Sermon on the Mount" is an excellent example of Yahu-Shuah clarifying Torah [Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah]). When Yahu-Shuah summed up the Law [Torah] into these two commands, he was conveying essential principles -- love Yahuwah and love your neighbor. But how does Yahuwah want us to love Him? How does He want us to love our neighbor? We're back to the Torah [Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah] -- we need the Torah [Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah] to define "how" to love Yahuwah and our neighbor.

The following are Pro-Torah [Pro-Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah] Observant Verses within the New Testament:

{Loukanus [Luke] 16:16,17} "The Law [Torah] and the prophets were until Yahu-Khawnawn [John]: since that time the kingdom of Ailoheem is preached, and every man presses into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the Law [Torah] to fail."

{Loukanus [Luke] 1:6} "And they were both righteous before Ailoheem, walking in all the Commandments and ordinances of Yahuwah blameless."

{Acts 24:14} "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the Ailoheem of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law [Torah] and in the prophets."

{Romans 2:13} "(For not the hearers of the Law [Torah] are just before Ailoheem, but the doers of the Law [Torah (Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah)] shall be justified)."

{Romans 3:31} "Do we then make void the Law [Torah (Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah)] through faith? Ailoheem forbid: yea, we establish the Law [Torah (Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah)]."

{Romans 7:12} "Wherefore the Law [Torah] is Set-Apart [Holy], and the Commandment Set-Apart [Holy], and just, and good."

{Romans 7:14} "For we know that the Law[Torah (Set of Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah)] is Spiritual: .. ? ."

{Romans 7:22} "For I delight in the Law[Torah] of Ailoheem after the inward man."

{Revelation 12:17} "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the Commandments of Ailoheem, and have the testimony of Yahu-Shuah the Anointed One [the one that taught Torah (Instructions for Set-Apart Living within the Kingdom of Yahuwah)]."

{Revelation 14:12} "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the Commandments of Ailoheem, and the faith of Yahu-Shuah."

{1 Yahu-Khawnawn [1 John] 2:3-6} "And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His Commandments. He that says, I know him, and keeps not His Commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keeps His word, in him verily is the love of Ailoheem perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him. He that says he abides in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked [i.e. ? do the same things as Yahu-Shuah did]."

{1 Kafe [Peter] 1:15} But as he who has called you is Set-Apart [Holy], so be Set-Apart [Holy] in all manner of conduct;

{1 Kafe [Peter] 1:16} Because it is written, You will be Set-Apart [Holy]; for I am Set-Apart.

{2 Kafe [Peter] 3:2} That you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the Set-Apart [Holy] prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Master and Savior:

{Act 1:5} For Yahu-Khawnawn [John] truly baptized with water; but you shall be baptized with the Set-Apart [Holy] Spirit not many days from now.

{Act 2:38} Then Kafe [Peter] said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Yahu-Shuah the Anointed One for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Set-Apart [Holy] Spirit.

{Act 11:16} Then remembered I the word of the Master, how he said, Yahu-Khawnawn [John] indeed baptized with water; but you shall be baptized with the Set-Apart [Holy] Spirit.

{Act 19:2} He said unto them, Received you the Holy Spirit when you believed?

{Act 1:8} But you shall receive power, after the Holy Spirit has come upon you: and you shall be witnesses unto me both in Yerushalayim, and in all Yahu-Dea [Judea], and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

{2 Kafe [2 Peter] 3:11-13} Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in all Set-Apart [Holy] conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening unto the coming of the day of Ailoheem, in which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, in which dwells righteousness [i.e. - not Lawlessness]

The Good News of Yahu-Shuah says:

{Eph 5:27} That He might present it to Himself a glorious Congregation/Assembly [Called out Ones], not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be Set-Apart [Holy] and without blemish.

{Loukanus [Luke] 9:26} For whosoever shall be ashamed of Me and of My words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when He shall come in His own glory, and in His Father's, and of the Set-Apart [Holy] Messengers [Angels].

And again,

{Markos [Mark] 8:38} Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of Me and of My words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when He comes in the glory of His Father with the Set-Apart [Holy] Messengers [Angels].

Repent of Lawless thinking!!!

And if one say that Shaul [Paul] taught that we did not have to keep the Instructions of Yahuwah because of Grace consider that he received the same Set-Apart Spirit:

{Act 9:17} ?And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Shaul [Paul], the Master, even Yahu-Shuah, that appeared unto you in the way as you came, has sent me, that you might receive your sight, and be filled with the Set-Apart [Holy] Spirit.?

Now this Set-Apart Spirit is to lead us into all Righteousness,, and that is what Shaul [Saul/Paul] taught as well. Keep in mind that many of the aforementioned Scriptures about the Torah [Law] were written by Shaul [Saul/Paul] and Shaul taught exactly what the other Apostles taught. Salvation came through following Yahu-Shuah as Master and doing what He said to do through faith ~ LET YAHU-SHUAH TORAH THROUGH US LEAD BY THE SET-APART SPIRIT WITHIN US ~ PERIOD. Anything that is not of Yahu-Shuah doing Torah in our lives is considered as filthy rags to His Heavenly Father that He came to restore us back unto, awmane. REPENT IF NEED BE(?)!

P.s. - do not think for a minute that it is me that says these thing but the Spirit that leads me. So if you do not like the Spirit in which I share the Good News rebuke it.
Thirdwoe Wrote:But Mr. RAT,

You said: "In order to gain this salvation we are to not only have faith that Yahu-Shuah came to save us but to follow His instructions which was to repent of our sins by turning from them and asking forgiveness."

I see your problem there. You think that you can "gain this salvation".

Nope. It is a gift of God's Grace...not of works, lest any should boast.

P.S. if you have a regular name, I would be happy to adress you with it.


Hi Chuck,

my name is will brinson:ferguson, have at it.

I will have to address your comments later tonight next time my turn for the computer comes around.
I need to look at your post in detail but I am at work, no offense but I can already spot many assumptions that will need to be dealt with.

Let me leave you with a bit of how I will respond.

Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.?

The Church is the authority concerning scripture, not man.

Speak soon.
Hi Alan,
Nice to read your article about Sunday and Sabbath here. Its very good work. Thanks.

Well, also have to continue my work now.
Just for your last remark: We Christians, aren?t we all forming the church (I mean, we are all part of the Church of Christ), while Christ is the head and "corner stone" of His church?
Thanks for your detailled explanation of Sunday worship. I totally agree with you there in, just you gave a detailled explanation also with Bible verses. Thanks for that.
God bless!

a brother on one side Wrote:it is the Lords doing and not mine.
a brother on the other side Wrote:do not think for a minute that it is me that says these thing but the Spirit that leads me
another brother Wrote:such acrimony and full of hate
I've seen this same kind of thing play out so many times and I don't understand how believers do this to each other. I don't get how each side can regard the energy and passion of the other and say, "with them it is hateful venom and the work of Satan, and with us it is holy zeal and the Lord's doing". We're all the same. God is not on my side - I have to get on His. Our passion for our own beliefs is no more divine than that of the Muslim or the Aztec. It can be used by God and it can be abused by the Deceiver. To whomever you present yourself to serve, you are that one's slave.

So who is being allowed to work here? Is it really the Lord's doing, or that of someone else? How can I know? Ah, but then I remember that we were given instructions to discern the truth wherever some would claim God was leading their teaching. I remember we can "test the spirits"; their words and behavior should line up with the Scripture! I remind myself that the spirits of prophets are subject to the prophets. I remember that God is not a God of confusion but of peace. I recall that He would have us let all things be done decently and in order.

None of these statements are consistent with the character and placement of this debate. But I should ignore that, right? And just unquestioningly go along with whichever side is closest to my personal fantasy or my church's delusions?

Maybe I'm way off base here, but I don't feel edified by this debate at all - regardless of which side is closer to my own position. Is it so good to make a showing of being right, we need not worry about doing right? Meat tastes delicious and feels satisfying, but is it worth stumbling your brother? I'll take the hit and say maybe I'm just the weak one here. Please forgive me for communicating to you about the distress your ways cause me.

It is very important to speak the Truth in love...when an error is being brought forth.

If you see something that I say, that is not true, or not done in love...then please show it to me.

Some people don't like to see a conflict...but conflict is not bad, but needed, when something is being taught that is not true and might mislead others down the wrong path.

The Scriptures teach that we are to earnestly contend for the Faith that was Once delivered unto the Saints. And The Messiah taught that He did not come to bring peace but a sword...and the Sword of Truth is what He meant. And when the Sword of Truth is will divide what is of soul and Spirit.
Brother, please feel free to call me Raymond.

It's generally not sustainable for one to debate an interested majority (with greater resources). I apologize ahead of time if I fail to keep up with that, or with those "playing by different rules."

I am confused and discouraged that any would misunderstand my message as against "correction". This is clearly not at issue. We must be able to address the issue of "how we ought" without clouding the issue of "whether we may". I believe the Scriptures are clearly not supportive of the character or the placement of this debate in particular. Additionally, it has been in violation of the forum rules. This forum is not supposed to be a theological battleground; it is neither the place for one to proselytize, nor for his opponent to scream, "heretic!". If you press for discussion I will consider yielding to your insistence, but only in PM. I can have no idea why any would seek to justify what (to me) is clearly reprehensible behavior.

The initial character of Sabbath & dietary mentions in this thread were asides between those having it in common - not a preaching campaign. Perhaps imprudent for us to dare admit our views, but the conversation was more than peaceable and respectful until the Online Inquisition had to come in and stamp out the "judaizers". It was not until that point that we had a theological argument on our hands. I tried to head this off, but was unsuccessful.

I return the invitation for correction, but can't we agree to observe the forum rules? I trust Paul has them in place for good reason. "Everyone" thinks they're right and excusing ourselves from these rules whenever someone dares to disagree with our position is neither ethical nor sustainable... "Everyone" is a lot of people. Can't each "correct" the other privately and not show such disregard for the clearly posted rules?
Like Raymond says, let's get back to the subject of Good Wednesday or Good Friday. Raymond, Its interesting to see how the meaning of the word "Arubtha" or "Orowtha" changed throughout time. During the time of Yeshua Meshikha, it meant either "Preparation" or "evening, sunset, darkness." In later centuries, the meaning of Arubtha or Orowtha became Friday.

St. Mark and St. Luke uses the word "Arubtha" in the crucifixion day. This word is used when Joseph of Ramtha (Arimathea in English) comes to meet Pontius Pilate. And we read this (Luke 24:21 in Peshitta) later - "And behold, three days [have passed] since all these things happened." Qalyopa mentions this verse on Sunday. And if we calculate, then it looks the crucifixion happened on a Wednesday. What do you all think about it?

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