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rival conjecture of "aphraates readings"
#16
Excerpted from Ruach Qadim: Aramaic Origins of the New Testament:
Andrew Gabriel Roth Wrote:Semitic poetry uses two main structures. Similar to a stanza in the West, the strophe can be thought of as paragraph or main idea. Within each strophe are smaller verse-like units called stiches. The object then is not so much to be a slave to rhyme (although there are many examples when this extra level is employed), but to have the thoughts in the stiches concord with the intent of the adjacent ones and, consequently, with the strophe as a whole.
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#17
Yes, rhymed Semitic poetry does exist, such as Martha Shamoni, but it is unusual, and arguably a late addition to Semitic poetic style. Puns and pairs of ideas would still be the fundamentals of semitic poetry in the first century, if rhyme was included at all at that time.
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#18
From what I can tell, the rhyming elements of the Syriac Peshitta might be more a function of the structure of the language, than of a purposeful intent to rhyme. The words are many, but the suffixes few; and they tend to rhyme with each other.

What seems more striking in Yeshua's words is what AGR addresses in the post of Aaron's. In fact, Andrew states that quite eloquently. Writing the words of Yeshua in paragraph form, never seems to do them justice. But putting them in poetic form gives them a little more flavor. An example:

Ye come unto me all you the wearied, and bearers of the burdens;
and myself, I to calm you.

Ye pick up my yoke upon you, and ye learn from me;
of quieted I am, and humble I am in my heart;
and so finding ye are, a quietude to your souls.
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#19
Quote:This is known as argument from authority. It wont do, except to show that there are acholars who think one way or another.
You have neglected to provide any evidence itself, and then ask ed that i show their position is untenable.

Judge, if Andrew or Paul quoted Westcott or Lamsa to support the case that the Peshitta existed before the fifth century, would you ask them to "provide evidence," or would you say "well-done?" The truth is that you are very uncritical about your own position because you're emotionally invested into it. That's your prerogative. But do not demand that I call fire from the sky, as though you are willing to even glance at my viewpoint.

Secondly, let me explain the appeal to authority. As each of us cannot know everything, we are forced to rely on those who specialize in the fields holding our interest. For instance, if I wanted to argue that white zinfandel wine is a better tasting wine than red wine, I would need to appeal to world-class wine-tasters. In social sciences, such as history, economics, psychology and law, the argument from authority is valid, as long as the following conditions are met:

a) the right authority is considered (One cannot use a doctor's view to support a political argument)
b) the sources are cited
c) sources are impartial and cross-checked


For example, in the case of the effects of child molestation, an attorney will appeal to a child psychologist to support his argument. The key word here is support. I cannot prove anything in this subject, but I can support my argument to a very high degree. But you know this, since you admit we aren't dealing with "maths."

I'm tired of having this talk with you, Judge. Instead of nick-picking my quotes, how about you show how my argument is weak because of a, b, and c reasons?

And please, for my sanity, purchase "A Rulebook for Arguments," by Anthony Weston.
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#20
Peace and Blessings

Distazo, if for you, rhyme is a requisite for Divine scripture, then the Gospels are elementary in comparison to the Qu'ran. If you are open-minded and curious enough to investigate, consider Ch. 55 "The Merciful." And thank you for your kind tone.

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The same end-rhyme stays consistent throughout the entire chapter. Of course, this is common in the Qu'ran.
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#21
Kara Wrote:Peace and Blessings

Distazo, if for you, rhyme is a requisite for Divine scripture, then the Gospels are elementary in comparison to the Qu'ran. If you are open-minded and curious enough to investigate, consider Ch. 55 "The Merciful." And thank you for your kind tone.

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The same end-rhyme stays consistent throughout the entire chapter. Of course, this is common in the Qu'ran.

Shlama,

the significance of the poetic nature of the Peshitta is largely due to the immense lack of such in the Greek. that is why the discussion is so important on this site of the poetry in the Peshitta. true, any text can be poetic. that is not the point. rather, the idea that is here scoffed at is that of a text that has scant little poetic nature to it becoming sophisticatedly poetic when translated into a language with a completely different grammatical structure. yet the Greek primacists want us to believe this just happens to be the case with the Peshitta. it is like shooting a paintball at a wall and producing the Mona Lisa. not gonna happen!

so what a sophisticated poetic structure / nature in ANY text so powerfully proves is that the text you are dealing with is the text in it's original language composition. it would not be surprising to find a poetic nature to the Qu'ran when it is in Arabic. not having read the Qu'ran, i can only assume that any translation of it is going to be missing that particular quality. as you are familiar with it, would my assumption be right?


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
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#22
Quote:Shlama,

the significance of the poetic nature of the Peshitta is largely due to the immense lack of such in the Greek. that is why the discussion is so important on this site of the poetry in the Peshitta. true, any text can be poetic. that is not the point. rather, the idea that is here scoffed at is that of a text that has scant little poetic nature to it becoming sophisticatedly poetic when translated into a language with a completely different grammatical structure. yet the Greek primacists want us to believe this just happens to be the case with the Peshitta. it is like shooting a paintball at a wall and producing the Mona Lisa. not gonna happen!

so what a sophisticated poetic structure / nature in ANY text so powerfully proves is that the text you are dealing with is the text in it's original language composition. it would not be surprising to find a poetic nature to the Qu'ran when it is in Arabic. not having read the Qu'ran, i can only assume that any translation of it is going to be missing that particular quality. as you are familiar with it, would my assumption be right?


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy[/quote]


Peace and Blessings,

I understand your point, Jeremy. First, due to my investigations (Aramaic Primacy I,II, III), there is ample evidence showing that the NT is a heterogeneous text---part of it is genuine Greek and other parts are genuine Aramaic. As for the parts that are genuinely Aramaic, for instance, the Syriac textual tradition (Old Syriac, Peshitta) of the Gospels has West Aramaic loanwords, mostly located in Jesus' sayings:

'b'
'rn'
bhyr'
hy'
twr'
ywm
lyt+separate personal pronoun as a negative copula
ns'/nys'
'qs
'r'wt'
slh
t'brynh
slyh'
'rmy'
gnt 'dn
tklt'

With this evidence, we can conclude that Nazarenes must have evangelized the Syriac-speaking Church in its infancy, bringing an early collection of Jesus' sayings (or attributed to him) with them. In light of this, I absolutely support the notion that one party of Christians, the Nazarenes, originally wrote down his sayings in Aramaic, perhaps in talmudic-style. At the same time, I believe another party wrote them in genuine Greek. This conjecture is supported by Morton Smith's analysis of 1st century Palestine:

The neglect of Syriac, which has already been mentioned, has resulted in a generally false picture of the history of Christianity, as moving exclusively to the West, from Aramaic-speaking Palestine to the Greek- speaking cities of the Mediterranean coast. This picture is false. At least as much Greek as Aramaic was spoken in Palestine, and the religion also spread to the East, through Aramaic-speaking territory. Therefore the movement was not from Aramaic to Greek, but both languages were represented in both the primitive and the secondary stages of the religion's development. Therefore the use of one or another in a document indicates nothing as to the document's date

Oh and did you listen to Ch. 55 (ar-Rahman)?
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#23
Kara Wrote:I'm tired of having this talk with you, Judge. Instead of nick-picking my quotes, how about you show how my argument is weak .


Ok Kevin can you simply explain your argument, in one or two sentences, then in another one or two sentences explain why you believe it?

Can you do this for me?

At the moment all you seem to have done (in this thread) is cut and pasted a quote and then boldly declared..."This is the most likely explanation to these "aphraates readings." "

Is that all you are saying? That someone else once believed something and therefore you too believe it?
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#24
Kara Wrote:Peace and Blessings

Distazo, if for you, rhyme is a requisite for Divine scripture, then the Gospels are elementary in comparison to the Qu'ran. If you are open-minded and curious enough to investigate, consider Ch. 55 "The Merciful." And thank you for your kind tone.


The same end-rhyme stays consistent throughout the entire chapter. Of course, this is common in the Qu'ran.

Dear Kara,

You just prove my point. The qoran was not originally Greek right?

The qoran does not rhyme by accidence right? There is semitic (sinc Arabic is a semitic language) tradition.
If you translate the qoran to english literally as possible, it will loose it's rhyme.
This also happens when you translate the wordplays and rhyme which exists in the Peshitta.

But I got the idea raising other issues which only can be explained by an aramaic source, are moot as long as we do not agree on the issue above.
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