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rival conjecture of "aphraates readings"
#1
Peace and Blessings,

A.P. proponents argue that there is irrefutable proof that the Peshitta existed before the fifth century. They cite Aphraates' NT quotations, found in his Demonstrations, as evidence; many of these readings correspond exactly to the passages in the Peshitta. Since he was one of the most prominent members of the Persian church, to them, it follows that the Peshitta must have been widely used before the fifth century. However, what A.P. proponents fail to consider is the difference between individual readings in the Peshitta, which turn up in the fourth century, and the Peshitta as a whole (a revision of the Veta Syra completed in the fifth century). First, the original Veta Syra mss have not descended to us and the two mss that are in our possession (sin and cur) were revised. That being said, because the Peshitta-as-a-whole did not yet exist, these "pre-peshitta" readings originate from a transmission of readings that belonged to the original Veta Syra. Hence, it is not a surprise that the Syriac-speaking church would finally incorporate some of these archaic readings into the Peshitta-as-a-whole, as known to Aphraates and St. Ephraem.

Considering these archaic readings, T.J. Baarda, after examining the gospel text in Rabbula's biography (436 CE), concludes:

We have found nine quotations in the biography. Two of them were in full harmony with the Pesitta text. But in both cases we found the same reading also attested by Diatessaron and Old Syriac evidence, cf. nos. 10 and 17. In seven other cases the quotations differed from Pesitta, but were akin to a text of the Old Syriac type. However, we never meet a text that is in full accordance with that of the extant Old Syriac manuscripts. If we want to fix the character of the text more precisely, we must look at those elements in the quotations in which the Syriac traditions differ from each other. I counted twenty such elements: 1. In six cases our biographer agrees with Ssc against SP, where the latter has clearly a revised text. In seven cases our biographer has a text different from what we find in SSCP; but in all these cases the text of SscP is a revised one, whereas the biographer's text has preserved a Tatianic reading or a Western variant. In seven other cases the text of the biographer goes with SP. In one case their common reading was clearly a revised text; but this revised text also appeared in Ss, so that the revision seems to be old. In two cases the agreement of the biographer's text with SP seems to preserve the Old Syriac reading against Ssc which have a revised text. In four cases - all found in John - the agreement with SP shows a revised text against the archaic text preserved in Ss and Sc. From this classification we have to conclude that the biographer's text on the whole was less revised and contained more archaic elements than both SP [Peshitta] and SCS [Sin/Cur] have preserved. This general con- clusion, however, cannot be applied to all the Gospels in the same measure....this state of affairs shows clearly that the text of John used by the author of Rabbula's life was a more revised one than that of the extant Old Syriac manuscripts, although not yet the very same text that we have in the collated manuscripts of the Pesitta.

This is the most likely explanation to these "aphraates readings."

Read:

" Research on the Old Syriac Heritage of the Peshitta Gospels" by Andreas Juckel, "
The Growth of the Peshitt ?? Version of the New Testament. Illustrated from the Old Armenian and Georgian Versions by F.C Conybeare

Bibliography

Baarda, T.J. "The Gospel Text in the Biography of Rabbula." Vigiliae Christianae 14.2 (1960): 30 Mar 2010.
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#2
Rabbula? See my previous post and also my evidence that Rabbula was the author of the "Old Syriac"..

Why such a short memory with you brother?

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#3
Paul Younan Wrote:Rabbula? See my previous post and also my evidence that Rabbula was the author of the "Old Syriac"..

Why such a short memory with you brother?

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once again, straw-man argument.
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#4
Akhi Rabbula was a Syriac and a Greek primacist. A Monophysite.

I am an Assyrian - I don't know any Syriacs personally. Nice people I'm sure.

I care about Rabbula's legacy about as much as osama bin laden cares about ayatollah khomenei's legacy.

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#5
Kara Wrote:Peace and Blessings,

A.P. proponents argue that there is irrefutable proof that the Peshitta existed before the fifth century.


No you just need evidence, so far you have nil.

Quote: They cite Aphraates' NT quotations, found in his Demonstrations, as evidence; many of these readings correspond exactly to the passages in the Peshitta.


Yes.

Quote:Since he was one of the most prominent members of the Persian church, to them, it follows that the Peshitta must have been widely used before the fifth century.

It folows that he used it. unless you have evidence to counter that.

Quote: However, what A.P. proponents fail to consider is the difference between individual readings in the Peshitta, which turn up in the fourth century, and the Peshitta as a whole (a revision of the Veta Syra completed in the fifth century).

Show examples.

Quote:First, the original Veta Syra mss have not descended to us and the two mss that are in our possession (sin and cur) were revised.


How would you know?

Quote:That being said, because the Peshitta-as-a-whole did not yet exist,



This is called circular reasoning.


Quote:these "pre-peshitta" readings originate from a transmission of readings that belonged to the original Veta Syra.


Do you have any evidence?
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#6
Peace and Blessings,

Judge, I will make this short. First, if you cared to read the title of this post, you'd see that scholars' explanation behind Aphraates' readings is a rival conjecture. Either their side nor yours has been proven yet. It follows that in order to prove your side, you must demonstrate how this "rival conjecture" is untenable. I was kind enough to provide you with scholarly articles on the issue, which took days to find.

Please research both sides of the coin and finally post a substantial argument before you waste my time to patronize me.
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#7
Kara,

It's all a continuation based on what 'authorities' have said in the past but no one was there when it all hapenned.
There is no first century authorithy which says: "Jesus spoke Greek, and the apostles wrote it down."

If you just compare the beauty of Jesus words in Aramaic, it's evident, in which language Jesus spoke proverbs.

Luke 7:32
Zamran Lakhun -
w'La raqdithun -

W'alYan Lakhun -
w'la Bakhithun -

John 4:48
an ??twatha utethmratha, -
la tekzoon la tehimnoon"

There are many of these rhymes which do not occur in Greek.
There is no law or rule that says: "If you translate from Greek to Aramaic, no matter what, Aramaic will beautifully form rhyme and rythm.

There are TOOO many of these samples, which show that Jesus words _must_ have been Aramaic. Not greek.


Historical evidence shows that Aramaic even in the synagogues, like Chorazin and Capernaum, had Aramaic inscriptions, including Greek inscriptions. So, it seems that Acts 6:1 was right?
Or do you think that all jews were Hellenists?
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#8
Peace and Blessings,

Distazo, I understand where you're coming from. Moreover, I appreciate the tone of your post.

I do think that there are parts in the Gospels, particularly in a few of Jesus' sayings, that have a genuine Aramaic origin. On the same coin, there are many parts thereof that are legitimately koine Greek, as I have demonstrated. As far as the poetry in the Syriac is concerned, while it sounds beautiful, it remains correlational.
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#9
Kara Wrote:Peace and Blessings,

Distazo, I understand where you're coming from. Moreover, I appreciate the tone of your post.

I do think that there are parts in the Gospels, particularly in a few of Jesus' sayings, that have a genuine Aramaic origin. On the same coin, there are many parts thereof that are legitimately koine Greek, as I have demonstrated. As far as the poetry in the Syriac is concerned, while it sounds beautiful, it remains correlational.
I am inclined to agree.
Note also that, while Distazo is certainly correct in saying that there is no law saying it must be translated poetically, it would not necessarily rule out that possibility. Others have used poetic elements to argue for extremely bizarre conclusions. Take, for example, Nehemiah Gordon's books about the Shem Tov Hebrew Matthew. Because it has some poetic elements he says it must be original. That's hardly rational. Translators are not required to make their translations poetic, but they sometimes do. It is a way of respecting the text they are working with.
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#10
Hi Kara,

After four years of study in this subject, I found especially that the gospels are full of rhyme.

The other parts of the Bible, -if they were translated from Greek- hardly do rhyme, except a few verses from Paul and John which clearly rhyme, in Revelation (Crawford Codex).

So, it seems that there is no necessity that Greek to Aramaic will become beautiful poems. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> kinda.

But if you translate (again) the ARamaic (gospels) to Koine, you'll basically get the same Greek as one of the four main Greek branches that are identified.

Another issue, that does not need any authority from the past or from todays universities <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

I collected 19 Bible verses which say: "translated, this is" (or a variation to it)

Unfortunately, this is a Dutch page (from <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.2001translation.nl">http://www.2001translation.nl</a><!-- m -->), but the table with verses can easily be understood (google translate really makes this a mess)
The table below might change because I'm still collecting all sentences which have: "Translated this means" or "this is..."

So, my conclusion is that the Greek bible witnesses that by adding 'translated this means' that the original language, must have been the Aramaic text.

About other letters, from Peter, Paul, James etc. I cannot (yet <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> ) be dogmatic about it, but a lot of verses, really smell from bad Greek grammar, like 'arsenkoitos' (manlayers) or 'the angels who were tartarussed' (Peter).

The - hyphens, mean: "The Aramaic Text has no explanation on the word mentioned"
* means "not having 'translated' but does translate"
** Aramaic Idiom, still in use in prayers.

***********"Translated this means" or "this is..."**********
Matthew 1:23 Emanuel, Hebrew, Hemon o Teos, Aman Alahan (Western-Aramaic)
Mark 3:17 Boanerges, Aramaic, huioi Brontes, b'nai ramo (Western-Aramaic)
Mark 5:41 Talita koem, Aramaic, Korasion soi lego eigere, -
Mark 7:34 Effatta, Aramaic, dianoichitheti -
Mark 15:22 Aramaic, Golgothan, Kraniou topos, Karkafta
Mark 15:34 Eli, Eli, lemana, sjabachthani, Aramaic, Mou Theos, Mo theos, eis ti eg katelipes me, "Alah-i, Alah-i, lmana, shebaktani."
John 1:38 Rabbi, Aramaic, Didaskale,-
John 1:41, 4:25 Messiah, Aramaic, Christos, -
John 1:42 Cephas, Aramaic, Cephas, Petros, -
John 9:7 Shilo, Hebrew, Siloam, Apestalmenos, -
John 19:13 Lithostroton, Greek, Lithostroton = Gabattha, r'Tsifta = Gpiptha
John 20:16 Rabboni, Eastern Aramaic (Hebrew G1447), Didaskale, Malpana (Western Aramaic )
Acts 1:19 Akeldamach, Eastern Aramaic, Chorion Haimatos, Koevriat dem (Western Aramaic)
Acts 4:36 Barnabas, Aramaic, Huis parakleseos , bra d'buwya Koevriat a dem- (Western-Aramaic)
Acts 9:39 Tabitha, Aramaic, Dorcas -
Acts 13:8 Elimas, Arabic, Elimas = Magos, Bar-Shumas = Alumas
Hebrews 7:2 Salem, Hebrew, Basileus Salem, Basileus eirenes, Mlek Shalim = Malka d'ashlam
Galatians 1:5* Amen, Aramaic, aionas ton aionon amen, **"L'alam, almin, amen"
Galatians 4:6* Abba, Aramaic, pater ho pater, Abba Abun ((My) father, our father)


I could add another list from untranslated Aramaic words (like Korban, Mammon, Zizania) which are chaldean words not Greek words, not even loanwords <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->.

Your brother in Christ
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#11
Kara Wrote:Peace and Blessings,

Judge, I will make this short. First, if you cared to read the title of this post, you'd see that scholars' explanation behind Aphraates' readings is a rival conjecture.

Ok


Quote: Either their side nor yours has been proven yet.

Proof is for maths . All we can do here is look at evidence and see which explnation makes more sense.

Quote:It follows that in order to prove your side, you must demonstrate how this "rival conjecture" is untenable. I was kind enough to provide you with scholarly articles on the issue, which took days to find.

This is known as argument from authority. It wont do, except to show that there are acholars who think one way or another.
You have neglected to provide any evidence itself, and then ask ed that i show their position is untenable.

Quote:Please research both sides of the coin and finally post a substantial argument before you waste my time to patronize me.

Im not patronising. Im trying to get you to post some actual evidence rather than cutting and pasting quotes.
Wouldn't it be far more productive to look at why such and such scholar thinks this way or that?
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#12
Since when does Semitic poetry rhyme?
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#13
Shlama Achi,

I checked and nobody claimed that this is Semitic poetry: but that it is rhymes
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#14
Shlama,

You will indeed find rhymes throughout the Aramaic. I've been focusing on Paulus' writings the last 7 months in my personal readings, and I've found multiple instances where he rhymes. one that i recall even an entire verse rhymed. if i can relocate it i'll post it here if anyone's interested.

rhymes may not be technically recognized as a Semitic poetic device, but they do exist....perhaps Alaha added them for the benefit of us booger-head Westerner's. <!-- sCool --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/cool1.gif" alt="Cool" title="Cool" /><!-- sCool -->


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
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#15
Maybe we (including our greek primacy friends) do not really consider the power of this.

When I was in a religious organization for many years, which I abandoned because I found out they were sitting on the chair of Jeshua and even more, there were really nice guys around. One of them, a great speaker, had the habit, of now and then, saying a full verse, in rhyme.
However, he prepared it. Get the picture? People always smile and awe at that!

Now imagine Jeshua. He, at several places, gives right, without preparation verses like this;

"Foxes have lairs and
birds of the sky have shelters, but The Son of
Man has nowhere to lay his head"

If he said it in Greek, it would have sounded like the English.
This clearly IS an Aramaic verse, and one have a triple consonate wordplay!
("Litheleh" / "Lith Leh" / "Mitlileh")

Litheleh Niqeh Ait Lhun
w'l'Parakhtha d'Shmaya Mitlileh

L'Breh Din d'Anasha Lith Leh -
Ayka d'Nisamukh Resheh

Now, if there is some -unknown- rule, which REALLY really, reaaallly would convince me, that Aramaic just is a nice 'automatic wordplay' <!-- sConfusedtupid: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/withstupid.gif" alt="Confusedtupid:" title="Stupid" /><!-- sConfusedtupid: --> language, let a Greek primacists, show me whether all those hundreds of wordplays, also exist in the Harklean Aramaic text (which is a translation of Greek)

What early churchfathers said, or theologican (who seldomly speak BOTH aramaic as Greek) does not and did never impress me. But something like above, would!

(Paul's rhyming can be found at e.g. 1Timothy 5:10)

b.t.w. what is exactly wrong with saying 'semitic poetry'? Maybe my english lacks here, but I don't get that.
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