Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
"Wine and alcohol in the Aramaic New Testament?
#1
I would like to ask if there are different words for "wine" and "grape juice" in the aramaic New Testament? Does the aramaic give more clarity about the type of wine Jesus did on the Wedding on Cana,etc.? According to my knowledge the Old Testament doesn't support drinking alcohol and the Hebrew has different words for "wine", but the Greek New Testament uses only one word. What do you think?
Reply
#2
The Peshitta uses [font="Estrangelo (V1.1)"]0rmX[/font] (chamra) which means wine, leaven, and donkey. Why do you say the TaNaKh doesn't support consumption of wine?

For anyone curious, here's the Hebrew words related to wine: ?????? (chemer; wine H2561), ?????? (yayin; wine H3196), ?????? (shekhar; strong drink H7941), ???????? (asis; sweet wine H6071), ?????????? (tirosh; new wine H8492), ?????? (mezeg; mixed wine H4197), ?????? (mesekh; mixture H4538), ?????? (soreq; choice grapes H8321), and ?????? (enav; grape H6025).

?????? (chemer; wine H2561), which is the Hebrew cognate of [font="Estrangelo (V1.1)"]0rmX[/font] (chamra), appears only twice, in Deuteronomy 32:14 and Isaiah 27:2.
Reply
#3
Shlama,

drinking shekhar is actually part of the commands for Tabernacles, and if i recall rightly it should be understood as "beer," correct?

one passage i've always thought didn't fit into the "wine is really grape juice" teaching is that Yeshuwa was accused of being a "winebibber," wasn't He? who would legitimately try to accuse someone of drinking grape juice to discredit them? that wouldn't make any sense unless He truly was drinking alcohol.

the Peshitta's use of KHEMRA is the direct cognate to the Hebrew CHEMER, which is quite uncontestably alcoholic in nature. this means to me that the Peshitta's use should be understood as meaning the same.

as long as one's drinking is not in excess, or in defiance to a health problem, i don't see anything wrong with it. i've recently started taking a liking to sake, myself - Japanese rice wine. ahhh <!-- sConfusedatisfied: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/satisfied.gif" alt="Confusedatisfied:" title="Satisfied" /><!-- sConfusedatisfied: -->

Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
Reply
#4
Shlama,

Just to strengthen your last statement, Jeremy:
Modest consumption of wine is not only acceptable on your terms but is also acceptable, and perhaps encouraged, at points in the TaNaKh.
Reply
#5
Thank you for your responces!
I am convinced that the Lord Jesus was not gluttonous and winebibber. And the accusation against Him was not true, so He was drinking only grape juice. If He was drinking wine He was a gluttoous also then. Mattew 11:19
As for the Old Testament we are told in Proverbs not even to look at wine, the priests were forbidden to drink strong drink when they were going to minister and it is not for the kings to drink wine or strong drink. My question was is there a different word for an unalcoholic wine (or grape juice) used in the New Testament or the context will determine what kind of wine it is talking about.
Reply
#6
Blessings Mirchev,

Please substantiate your claims with Scripture references...
Reply
#7
Mirchev Wrote:Thank you for your responces!
I am convinced that the Lord Jesus was not gluttonous and winebibber. And the accusation against Him was not true, so He was drinking only grape juice. If He was drinking wine He was a gluttoous also then. Mattew 11:19
As for the Old Testament we are told in Proverbs not even to look at wine, the priests were forbidden to drink strong drink when they were going to minister and it is not for the kings to drink wine or strong drink. My question was is there a different word for an unalcoholic wine (or grape juice) used in the New Testament or the context will determine what kind of wine it is talking about.
The implication of Matt. 11:19 is actually that he did drink wine, by way of contrasts. He is contrasting himself with John, an ascetic. He points out that if you are an ascetic, they accuse you of being crazy, and if you are ordinary (i.e. not abstaining from food and drink beyond what is required) then you are accused of being a glutton and winebibber.

Proverbs says not to look at the wine when it is red, which is implying an undue love of alcohol, i.e. alcoholism.
No, there is no other word for nonalcoholic wine, which would have been essentially unachievable in the ancient world, unless it was freshly made. The story of Cana also implies that the wine was alcoholic. Else why would the best be served first? The hope is that the guests will get a little bit drunk and not notice that the worst is served last.
Reply
#8
Levitus 10:8-11 - the priests
The two sons of Aaron died when they entered the Tabernacle after using alcohol.
Proverbs 31:4-7 - the kings
Proverbs 23:30 -do not taste wine 23:31 - do not even look at wine
If the Lord Jesus was drinking alcoholic wine then the pharisees were right that He is a glutton. Then their words are not an accusation, but a statement of a fact.
Ephesians 5:18 - "do not be drunk with wine" is different than "do not get drunk"
If you drink a little you are still intoxicating yourself even if it is not so visible.
Reply
#9
Leviticus 10 actually proves to us that drinking wine is acceptable, since the priests were only prohibited from drinking it when they entered the sanctuary (verse 9). The implication here is that the rest of the time it is acceptable.
Deuteronomy 14:26, it is actually commanded for you to buy wine and "strong drink" for the festival and to have a feast before God. I can make a reasonable case that this verse implies a level of intoxication, even.
Numbers 6:3, the Nazirite vow prevents a special class of people from having wine. This implies that it is fine for ordinary people, just not for the Nazirites.

If we are going to suggest that he was a winebibber if he drank at all we might aswell suggest that he was a glutton if he ate at all.
I disagree with your statement about being "drunk with wine." It is true that even a little bit will affect the individual drinking, but that's not what would be referred to as "drunk." I can have several glasses of wine or several beers, or even a couple shots of hard liquor long before I become anything like what would be called "drunk."
Reply
#10
Fermentation is a natural process since yeast is on the skin of grapes. Grape juice is converted to wine in a closed container, otherwise it becomes undrinkable vinegar.

There is ample evidence that the wine of the New Testament was alcoholic. For example from the Acts 2:

12 And they were all amazed and stunned, saying one to another, What does this mean?
13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14 & And afterwards Simon Peter stood up together with the eleven disciples, and lifted up his voice and said to them, Men of Jewish race, and all that dwell at Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and hearken to my words;
15 For these men are not drunken as you suppose, for behold it is but the third hour of the day [Lamsa]

Otto
Reply
#11
Mirchev Wrote:Levitus 10:8-11 - the priests
The two sons of Aaron died when they entered the Tabernacle after using alcohol.
Proverbs 31:4-7 - the kings
Proverbs 23:30 -do not taste wine 23:31 - do not even look at wine
If the Lord Jesus was drinking alcoholic wine then the pharisees were right that He is a glutton. Then their words are not an accusation, but a statement of a fact.
Ephesians 5:18 - "do not be drunk with wine" is different than "do not get drunk"
If you drink a little you are still intoxicating yourself even if it is not so visible.

Shlama Mirchev,

the best advice i could give you at this point, since both Peshitta and TN"K witnesses have been addressed, is to follow the Spirit as you are convicted for yourself. set whatever limits you might need for you, and take care not to put your own standards on another believer if the Word seems that it might possibly be the other way around. you can give your opinion, to be certain, and caution regarding acohol is ALWAYS wise, but just take care not to put a burden on another believer that the Spirit has not laid upon them, just as Peter spoke against the sect of the Pharisees in Acts 15. if you want to follow a certain walk in regards to what you abstain from, you are certainly entitled to do so, and the Father knows your sincerity. but be careful not to take the Scriptural freedom from any man in regards to any issue. trust the Father -- He who makes you to stand shall make His servants to stand, as well, even if they are of a slightly different persuasion than you.

be encouraged!!

Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
Reply
#12
Aaron S Wrote:Shlama,

Just to strengthen your last statement, Jeremy:
Modest consumption of wine is not only acceptable on your terms but is also acceptable, and perhaps encouraged, at points in the TaNaKh.

Shlama akhi,

yes, that is indeed true! even Yeshuwa, who drank of the seder wine, refused it again in regard in part to His vow not to drink of it until He drinks it again with us, when it was offered to Him on the cross. and i don't know any seder that uses only grape juice for the four cups!


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)