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Doctrinal differences : ACOE - RCC ?
#1
In general, afaik - cmiiw, there are 3 or more 'group' or 'divisiion' of church, but let me focus on this :

1. western church - RC with Latin
2. eastern church - with greek and or coptic
3. assyrian church - with syriac/aramaic [acoe]

No 1 & 2 split after great schism in 10th century, but i think they have great similarities in doctrinal

My question is the differences with acoe

1. Does acoe use rosary in praying?
2. Does acoe regard St. Mary as intercessor in praying like RC?
3. Is there any adoration of St. Mary like RC
4. Where is St. Mary in acoe doctrinal , is it same positional like RC?

If possible, I want to know more detail in this any differences


wbr//paul
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#2
Hello callmepaul,

First, I would like to clear up a misconception. Give or take, there are actually 7 different branches of the "One Holy, Apostolic and Catholic Church".

1. Church of the East (mostly Assyrians and Indians)
2. Oriental Orthodox (Syriac, Coptic, Ethiopian, Eritrean, Indian-Malankara and Armenian)
3. Eastern Orthodox (Byzantine: Greek, Russian, etc.)
4. Roman Catholic Church (and Eastern Rite Catholics)
5. Apostolic Lutherans (Swedish and Finish)
6. Anglicans (Church of England and Episcopal Church)
7. "Independent" Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican Churches

Now as far as your questions...

1. Does acoe use rosary in praying?
No, but so long as it is a bare cross (not crucifix) I don't think there are any restrictions.

2. Does acoe regard St. Mary as intercessor in praying like RC?
We generally go directly to God via Jesus Christ, but all Saints (including Mary) can be called upon for "intercession" as well.

3. Is there any adoration of St. Mary like RC?
Being the Mother of our Lord and Saviour, she is by far the most revered Saint.

4. Where is St. Mary in acoe doctrinal, is it same positional like RC?
See above. She is also mentioned in our lituragy.

Other basic differences between Church of the East and Roman Catholic Church:

Old Testament Peshitta (Aramaic) Septuagint (Greek)
New Testament Peshitta (Aramaic) Vulgate (Latin) via multiple Greek texts
Ascension of Mary No Yes
Mary???s Title Mother of Christ Mother of God
Purgatory No Yes
Original Sin/Free Will Free Will Original Sin
Head of Church Patriarch Pope
Priest Marrage No Bishops and Above Not at all
Nazarene Life All Bishops and Above Not at all
Sign of the Cross Up-Down-Right-Left Up-Down-Left-Right
Eucharist Bread (leavened) Waffer (unleavened)
Baptism/Comformation Both as an infant (together) Baptism as infant and Comformation later
Alter Behind Priest and curtain In front of Priest and no curtain
Literagy Mar Addai and Mari Tridentine Mass and Latin Mass
Confession Group (Individual allowed) Individual
Sacraments
1. Priesthood
2. Baptism
3. Oil of Unction
4. Oblation (Qurbana)
5. Absolution
6. Holy Leaven (Melka)
7. Sign of the Cross


1. Holy Orders
2. Baptism
3. Anointing of the Sick
4. Eucharist
5. Reconciliation
6. Marriage
7. Confirmation
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#3
Hello Mr. Nimrod Warda, thank you for your respond

May I focus on this
Nimrod Warda Wrote:---

2. Does acoe regard St. Mary as intercessor in praying like RC?
We generally go directly to God via Jesus Christ, but all Saints (including Mary) can be called upon for "intercession" as well.

Does it common practice among lay person [if so called] or it rare?

As comparison, generally speaking, RCC people (I'm protestant) almost cant be separated from praying to [not for] St. Mary in everyday life.

One more question (at this moment)

Is the any relic ?( let me answer : cross is the only relic, isn't it?)


wbr//paul
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#4
Hello again callmepaul,

As far as your first question, I would say it is actually both. Some people might feel more comfortable just asking God for help, while others also ask for Saints to look over them. Again, in NO WAY does this mean we pray "to" them, but rather it is like asking a friend or relative to say a prayer for you when you are sick.

From my understanding, this is actually what all Catholic and Orthodox people should do as well. I think the confussion might stem from their use of statues, pictures and paintings. If you asked a practicing Catholic or Orthodox person they might be able to elaborate on this better than me.

With regard to your second question, you are correct in saying that we venerate the life-giving Cross. That said, it is not the material substance of the item itself that we revere, but the representation of the meaning and significance behind it. Basically, besides the Cross, the Bible and the Eucharist, we do not have any "relics" in the church sanctuary. I hope this helps.

Regards,

-Nimrod Warda-
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#5
So there is no doctrine of purgatory and hell or just purgatory? They arent 100% the same and differentiating Mary as the Mother of Christ from Mother of God just makes more sense to me. Is there somewhere I can get a catechism or other teaching source, if the ACOE has something like that? Thanks.
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#6
onebiblestudent Wrote:So there is no doctrine of purgatory and hell or just purgatory? They arent 100% the same and differentiating Mary as the Mother of Christ from Mother of God just makes more sense to me. Is there somewhere I can get a catechism or other teaching source, if the ACOE has something like that? Thanks.

There is definitely a hell in CoE theology. Just not purgatory.

If you are interested in a book of our theology, Bishop Mar Awa's "Mysteries of the Kingdom" is an excellent resource in English. While dealing mainly with the meaning behind the sacraments, there is also a great deal of time spent on the theology behind our liturgical practices and worship.

You can get a copy here:

http://www.amazon.com/MYSTERIES-KINGDOM-...m+assyruan

In addition to the Aramaic, many of the sermons and other videos on the official Youtube channel are in English and will be helpful of course in understanding our theology:

http://www.youtube.com/user/AssyrianChurchTV

+Shamasha Paul
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#7
If you can explain in a nutshell, what exactly does the CoE teach about hell?

I feel like the aramaic scriptures are strengthening my faith more than anything else in my life and its making me feel free to try and finally wrap my head around these sometimes difficult teachings. Understanding the trinity is next.
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#8
onebiblestudent Wrote:If you can explain in a nutshell, what exactly does the CoE teach about hell?

I feel like the aramaic scriptures are strengthening my faith more than anything else in my life and its making me feel free to try and finally wrap my head around these sometimes difficult teachings. Understanding the trinity is next.

Hi again onebiblestudent,

The CoE holds that hell is described in detail by the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. It lacks a major focus on this topic in its patristic writings, as our tradition prefers rather to focus on Abraham's bosom (heaven) and the Sacrifice which bought that for us.

If you'd like to learn more about our understanding of the "Trinity", from both a linguistic and theological viewpoint, that topic has been documented quite thoroughly on this forum. A search for the term "qnoma" will lead you to multiple posts. The Aramaic may help greatly in your understanding of this complex topic.

You might want to start with this post:

<!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=827&hilit=qnoma#">viewtopic.php?f=17&t=827&hilit=qnoma#</a><!-- l -->

+Shamasha
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#9
Hi there,
it looks like the old (Nestorian) CoE had a different creed than today!

This is from the year 612:

We believe in one divine Being.
It is everlasting, is alive without beginning, everything stimulating.
Incredibly all powers creating. Manner, all wisdom giving.
Pure Spirit. Endlessly, unfathomably. Not compound and without parts.
Insubstantially. Invisibly and unalterable. Suffering-incapable and immortally.
Neither by them nor by other still with others suffering and change can enter;
since completely it is in its being and its being.
Neither increase nor decrease can receive them;
since it is the being for itself and God about everything.

No mention of the Trinity, very strictly monotheistic!

Today's creed:

One is Christ the Son of God,
Worshiped by all in two natures;
In His Godhead begotten of the Father,
Without beginning before all time;
In His humanity born of Mary,
In the fullness of time, in a body united;
Neither His Godhead is of the nature of the mother,
Nor His humanity of the nature of the Father;
The natures are preserved in their Qnumas,
In one person of one Sonship.
And as the Godhead is three substances in one nature,
Likewise the Sonship of the Son is in two natures, one person.
So the Holy Church has taught.

Kind regards
Michael
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#10
Hi Michael,

Where did you get the text from the supposed creed of 612? It looks like a very odd translation. Please cite your source.

Thanks.

+Shamasha
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#11
Paul Younan Wrote:Hi Michael,

Where did you get the text from the supposed creed of 612? It looks like a very odd translation. Please cite your source.

Thanks.

+Shamasha

Hi Paul,
it is my own translation, sorry i am not a good translator, and it is not so easy to translate this text into English!
The source is a German book: Maruke Metselaar, Die Nestorianer und der fruehe Islam

This is the original text:

Wir glauben an die eine goettliche Wesenheit.
Sie ist ewig, ohne Beginn, lebendig, alles belebend.
Maechtig alle Maechte erschaffend. Weise, alle Weisheit schenkend.
Reiner Geist. Unendlich, unfassbar. Nicht zusammengesetzt und ohne Teile.
Unkoerperlich. Unsichtbar und unwandelbar. Leidensunfaehig und unsterblich.
Weder durch sie noch durch andere noch mit anderen kann Leiden und Aenderung eintreten;
denn vollkommen ist sie in ihrem Wesen und ihrem Sein.
Weder Vermehrung noch Verminderung kann sie empfangen;
denn sie ist das Sein fuer sich selbst und Gott ueber alles.

Kind regards
Michael
Reply
#12
mickoy Wrote:
Paul Younan Wrote:Hi Michael,

Where did you get the text from the supposed creed of 612? It looks like a very odd translation. Please cite your source.

Thanks.

+Shamasha

Hi Paul,
it is my own translation, sorry i am not a good translator, and it is not so easy to translate this text into English!
The source is a German book: Maruke Metselaar, Die Nestorianer und der fruehe Islam

This is the original text:

Wir glauben an die eine goettliche Wesenheit.
Sie ist ewig, ohne Beginn, lebendig, alles belebend.
Maechtig alle Maechte erschaffend. Weise, alle Weisheit schenkend.
Reiner Geist. Unendlich, unfassbar. Nicht zusammengesetzt und ohne Teile.
Unkoerperlich. Unsichtbar und unwandelbar. Leidensunfaehig und unsterblich.
Weder durch sie noch durch andere noch mit anderen kann Leiden und Aenderung eintreten;
denn vollkommen ist sie in ihrem Wesen und ihrem Sein.
Weder Vermehrung noch Verminderung kann sie empfangen;
denn sie ist das Sein fuer sich selbst und Gott ueber alles.

Kind regards
Michael

Michael,

No disrespect, but the creed you contend is from 612 has been through German to the English you posted above. It's horrible and I can't make out where it's from, or what the original reading was.

+Shamasha
Reply
#13
Paul Younan Wrote:
mickoy Wrote:
Paul Younan Wrote:Hi Michael,

Where did you get the text from the supposed creed of 612? It looks like a very odd translation. Please cite your source.

Thanks.

+Shamasha

Hi Paul,
it is my own translation, sorry i am not a good translator, and it is not so easy to translate this text into English!
The source is a German book: Maruke Metselaar, Die Nestorianer und der fruehe Islam

This is the original text:

Wir glauben an die eine goettliche Wesenheit.
Sie ist ewig, ohne Beginn, lebendig, alles belebend.
Maechtig alle Maechte erschaffend. Weise, alle Weisheit schenkend.
Reiner Geist. Unendlich, unfassbar. Nicht zusammengesetzt und ohne Teile.
Unkoerperlich. Unsichtbar und unwandelbar. Leidensunfaehig und unsterblich.
Weder durch sie noch durch andere noch mit anderen kann Leiden und Aenderung eintreten;
denn vollkommen ist sie in ihrem Wesen und ihrem Sein.
Weder Vermehrung noch Verminderung kann sie empfangen;
denn sie ist das Sein fuer sich selbst und Gott ueber alles.

Kind regards
Michael

Michael,

No disrespect, but the creed you contend is from 612 has been through German to the English you posted above. It's horrible and I can't make out where it's from, or what the original reading was.

+Shamasha

Hi Paul,
the source is quoted as: NestColl I, 150/151, II 88/89, it looks like a Nestorian collection...

Kind regards
Michael
Reply
#14
mickoy Wrote:Hi Paul,
the source is quoted as: NestColl I, 150/151, II 88/89, it looks like a Nestorian collection...

Kind regards
Michael

Did you seriously use Google Translate to get the English for this? <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

+Shamasha
Reply
#15
Paul Younan Wrote:
mickoy Wrote:Hi Paul,
the source is quoted as: NestColl I, 150/151, II 88/89, it looks like a Nestorian collection...

Kind regards
Michael

Did you seriously use Google Translate to get the English for this? <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

+Shamasha

Paul is it relly important which translator i used? What i wanted to show was the fact, that the CoE had a different creed in the past!
Kind regards
Michael
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