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Marya (Lord-God)
#1
Shlama alokhun,

I wanted to see if anyone could help me find some solid scholarly research done about the title "Marya". I know it means Lord-God (Mar = Lord; Yah = short form of YHWH/God), but I am looking to see how this ties into the use of the short form of the name of God in the Old Testament.

From my own experience I have never heard an Aramaic speaker refer to anyone but Jesus as Marya. I do know that the more generic term "Mar" is used quite often today for a wide array of saints, bishops, etc. and "Yah" is added to words for names in the Old Testament, but is the word Marya (or the Hebrew equivalent) ever used in the Tanakh to denote God specifically (or anyone else)? Furthermore, outside of names, is Yah (or YHWH) ever used to refer to someone other than God (or other gods)?

As usual any help would be appreciated.

Push b'shayna,

-Nimrod Warda-
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#2
Hi,

MRY (Mar-Yah) is in the Aramaic OT targum used at all those 6800+ places, where the Hebrew OT has JHWH.

Regards
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#3
Shlama,

interestingly, it is also used in a few places where the Hebrew text reads "Adonai" / "Adoneynu."


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
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#4
Burning one Wrote:Shlama,

interestingly, it is also used in a few places where the Hebrew text reads "Adonai" / "Adoneynu."


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy

Do you in fact mean the 137 times, where the soferium applied 'emendations' ? (Such as in Psalms 110:5)
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#5
Shlama akhi,

i remember checking those specific passages to see if they were part of the emendations of the sopherim, and they weren't, because that was my initial thought, as well. the ones i'm aware of are out of Nehemiah and somewhere in the Psalms, if i remember correctly. sorry i don't have the specific passages on hand. i'll have to do some digging to find the ones i'm familiar with, if you're interested. if anyone else knows of any, it would be helpful!

Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
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#6
Sure akhi,

I would be interested in such comparison. There are evidential and strange differences.

(About 'yah' which is a shortcut for jahweh) it is not used for any godhead/human being (except todays jamaica). I would eat my shoes on that <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

I also would like to know why both the greek and aramaic do have 'God' (alaha) instead of Mar-Yah in Matthew 4:4 and John 6:45.

They citate the OT, but unlike the fact that the hebrew has YHWH, the Greek as well as the NT have 'God'.
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#7
Thank you distazo and others. I will have to check out Matthew 4:4 and John 6:45.

Much appreciated,

-Nimrod Warda-
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#8
Shlama akhan,

sorry for the lateness in response. i'm swamped with school.

but here's what i found after going back and looking at some of the instances of MARYA in the Peshitta A"NK.

the Hebrew term is listed first, and then the Peshitta's rendering. as you will notice, Marya is not always translating the Hebrew YHWH, but sometimes Adown (Master), and sometimes Eloheem (Strong One / God).

Sh???moth (Exodus)
15:2 Yah / Marya

Tehillim (Psalms)
94:7 Yah / Marya
94:12 Yah / Marya
114:7 Adown / Marya
115:17-18 Yah / l???Marya
118:17 Yah / D???Marya
118:19 Yah / l???Marya
122:4 Yah / d???Marya
135:4 Yah / Marya

YeshaYahu (Isaiah)
10:16 HaAdown YHWH / Marya Alaha
10:33 HaAdown YHWH / Marya Alaha
19:4 Adowneem / d???Marya
26:4 Yah YHWH / d???Marya Alaha

Malaki (MalachI)
3:1 HaAdown / d???Marya

NechemYah (Nehemiah)
8:10 l???Adoneynu / Marya
10:29 (30 in the Hebrew) ???b???Torot haEloheem??? / ???Namuwsa d???Marya,??? and also ???Moshe eved haEloheem??? / ???d???Muwshe abdeh d???Marya???

this is VERY interesting. there doesn't seem to have been a staunch RULE implemented or followed at the time of the Peshitta A"NK's production, since the range of translation of MARYA includes YHWH, Adown, Adowneem, Eloheem, and even YHWH to Alaha! interestingly, Adown also was translated as Alaha. i'm wondering now if there are other nuances like this elsewhere....

hope this helps. the vast majority of the time, MARYA is indeed reserved for YHWH, but the above examples show that other Aramaic terms were considered valid translations of the divine Name and titles at the time of the production of the Peshitta A"NK.


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
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#9
Shlama alokh akhooni Jeremy,

Thank you for taking the time out to look into this. It is good to know that Marya is still only reserved for God (in whatever form of the name)! This is what I was most interested in confirming.

Push b'shayna,

-Nimrod Warda-
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#10
Burning one Wrote:Shlama akhan,

sorry for the lateness in response. i'm swamped with school.

but here's what i found after going back and looking at some of the instances of MARYA in the Peshitta A"NK.

the Hebrew term is listed first, and then the Peshitta's rendering. as you will notice, Marya is not always translating the Hebrew YHWH, but sometimes Adown (Master), and sometimes Eloheem (Strong One / God).

Sh???moth (Exodus)
15:2 Yah / Marya

Tehillim (Psalms)
94:7 Yah / Marya
94:12 Yah / Marya
114:7 Adown / Marya
115:17-18 Yah / l???Marya
118:17 Yah / D???Marya
118:19 Yah / l???Marya
122:4 Yah / d???Marya
135:4 Yah / Marya

YeshaYahu (Isaiah)
10:16 HaAdown YHWH / Marya Alaha
10:33 HaAdown YHWH / Marya Alaha
19:4 Adowneem / d???Marya
26:4 Yah YHWH / d???Marya Alaha

Malaki (MalachI)
3:1 HaAdown / d???Marya

NechemYah (Nehemiah)
8:10 l???Adoneynu / Marya
10:29 (30 in the Hebrew) ???b???Torot haEloheem??? / ???Namuwsa d???Marya,??? and also ???Moshe eved haEloheem??? / ???d???Muwshe abdeh d???Marya???

this is VERY interesting. there doesn't seem to have been a staunch RULE implemented or followed at the time of the Peshitta A"NK's production, since the range of translation of MARYA includes YHWH, Adown, Adowneem, Eloheem, and even YHWH to Alaha! interestingly, Adown also was translated as Alaha. i'm wondering now if there are other nuances like this elsewhere....

hope this helps. the vast majority of the time, MARYA is indeed reserved for YHWH, but the above examples show that other Aramaic terms were considered valid translations of the divine Name and titles at the time of the production of the Peshitta A"NK.


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
In the Isaiah passages where YHWH is rendered Alaha it almost seems like it's following a later convention of reading YHWH as Elohim when it follows Adonai, since YHWH is normally read "Adonai" now. But I was under the impression that this convention was more modern than the POT.
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#11
Shlama Dawid,

i honestly don't know when YHWH began to be substituted with Adonai. sorry...


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
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#12
Shlama Akhay,

The Massoretic practice of replacing 134 YHWH readings with Adonai apparently started before AD 100.

Here is part of my appendix to my 1st Century Aramaic-English Interlinear Bible-The Psalms

Quote:Information from the Massorahs indicating 134 places where the Sopherim (Hebrew Scribes) altered the Divine Name ???YHWH???
to ???Adonai??? -(???My Lord???); 49 are in the Psalms, which references I have highlighted in grey where The Peshitta has ayrm ???
???Marya??? (???Lord JAH???, the Aramaic version of ???YHWH???) in 36 of the 49 places. Apparently most of the alterations of the
Hebrew Bible were made after the Peshitta Psalms were written. Thirteen of them existed at the time. Compare those statistics with
the Hebrew Dead Sea Scrolls of the Psalms, in which 2 of the 7 places observable of the 49 Sopherim alterations have the original
???YHWH???. Assuming that the alterations were made over an extended time period, it looks like the Peshitta was written before the
Dead Dea Scrolls, before most (73%) of the changes were made to the text, and that the Dead Sea Scrolls were copied after most
of those changes had been made (71%).
The latest DSS Psalm scrolls are dated AD 68, and I suspect most of the Massoretic
alterations were made in the first century in response to the Christian faith in Yeshua The Messiah as YHWH incarnate. Yeshua
Himself had appealed to Psalm 110 as proof that The Messiah is YHWH (See 110:1,5) and inflicted a mortal blow to their false
doctrine by invoking scripture. Their response? Rewrite the Bible by substituting ???Adonai??? for YHWH in Psalm 110:5, so as to
obviate the Triniarian doctrine of YHWH Messiah seated at the right hand of YHWH. They also changed Genesis 18:3, in which
Abraham addresses three men as ???YHWH???.Can one wonder why they would change ???YHWH??? to the rather generic
title,???Adonai????
It was certainly an act of desperation when Massoretic guardians of the holy writings of YHWH actually deliberately changed the
Holy Name in 134 places. Of course, if Jerusalem had been destroyed when Psalm 74 was translated as the Peshitta, most of the
Psalms would not have been written before AD 68, so the dates are indefinite. Christians would likely have been aware of
Massoretic corruptions and would have avoided their manuscripts when translating the Peshitta. Hence the seeming earlier nature
of the manuscripts which they used, as compared to Dead Sea Scrolls, which would not necessarily escape or avoid the Massoretic
machinations.
What we can say with confidence is that the Peshitta was produced before the Massoretic Hebrew Bible that we have today was
standardized.The Peshitta OT overwhelmingly supports the pre Massoretic readings of the Divine Name specified above.

The examples Jeremy gives of "Marya" translating "Adonai" really amount to 5 examples. All the others have either YAH or YHWH in the Hebrew text,
whether 1st or 2nd of two Hebrew words assigned to the Deity, so it is not really fair to assign another Hebrew word to "Marya" in those places.
5 examples out of 6800 occurrences of YHWH in the Hebrew Bible is 0.07%, and we have little possibility of knowing that the Hebrew reading being translated
in those cases was not YHWH, in those mss. 2000 years ago.
99.93% of the Hebrew readings behind "Marya" in the Peshitta O.T. are "YHWH". That does not really support a diversity of translations of "YHWH" into Aramaic.

Blessings,

Dave Bauscher
Get my NT translations, books & articles at :
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://aramaicnt.com">http://aramaicnt.com</a><!-- m --> and Lulu.com
I also have articles at BibleCodeDigest.com
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