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Locust vs. Desert Plant
#1
Shlama alokhun,

Something quite interesting was just brought to my attention yesterday at church and I thought this would be VERY interesting to the Peshitta primacy movement. So, during service my priest explained how the Aramaic word "qmssa" (if read right to left - qop, meem, sade, alap) which is found in Matthew 3:4 and Mark 1:6 is NOT refering to the word locust! I was told about a desert plant full of protein (red in color and about 25 cm in height) that grows in the area where John the Baptist was living, which just so happens to have the same (or similar) name in written form. I believe he pronounced it something like qamssa or qamsse or qamssi (I can't remember exactly).

If any of you are familiar with Mexican food, think of it like eating "nopales". For those unfamiliar with Mexican cuisine go to...
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/travel/jrbaccon/jrbcactus.html">http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/travel/j ... actus.html</a><!-- m -->

Regardless this makes a lot of sense, since in the past I was confused as to why John the Baptist would chase around and eat bugs. Moreover, this reaffirms my thought that John the Baptist would have lived according to the same diet as Meshikha (vegetarian + fish).

God Bless,

-Nimrod Warda-
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#2
Shlama Akhi Nimrod:
Grasshoppers and Locust are kosher, according to Torah. John the Baptist was a Levite and was well versed in the Scriptures. (Leviticus 11:20-23) Grasshoppers are tasty, fried in butter. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> Locusts and wild honey would have been a high protein diet for John the Baptist. Vegetarian diets were the staple of those that could not afford meat or shunned food bought in the shambles (open market).

Shlama,
Stephen
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.dukhrana.com">http://www.dukhrana.com</a><!-- m -->
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#3
Shlama Lakh Akhan Nimrod,

Here is some interesting reading regarding this topic:

http://books.google.com/books?id=uzTcB8y...&ct=result

There is a carob plant in the near east that is referred to idiomatically as the "Locust (qamtsa) Tree", so it is theoretically possible. If we could find other references to "qamtsa" from contemporary literature to the NT that referred to this fruit of this plant, it would be a nice bit of evidence for Aramaic primacy.

See also:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ni6O7Hr...&ct=result

On the other hand, here is a boost for the Locust-theory:

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries...4/11/65787

Kosher or not, ick!
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
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#4
Quote:On the other hand, here is a boost for the Locust-theory:

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries...4/11/65787

Kosher or not, ick!

Shlama Akhi Paul and Nimrod:
It's all a matter of taste. Grasshoppers fried in butter taste like chicken, very, very tiny chickens.

<!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

Shlama,
Stephen
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#5
Stephen Silver Wrote:It's all a matter of taste.

I suppose so - to each his own I guess. That dude from Eilat certainly likes them, raw.

We are talking about this little critter, right? MMMMM-MMMM. Makes my mouth water. <!-- sCry --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/cry.gif" alt="Cry" title="Crying" /><!-- sCry -->

[Image: locust.jpg]
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
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#6
Mmmmm... delicious locust :-D~

Anyway, Payne Smith actually has "parsnip" as a second meaning to qamtza.

Parsnip might not be an entirely correct rendering on Payne Smith's part, but at least there seems to be references in Syriac litterature to where qamtza is used for some sort of edible plant / vegetable.

Payne Smith p. 509 - <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://dukhrana.com/lexicon/PayneSmith/page.php?p=509">http://dukhrana.com/lexicon/PayneSmith/page.php?p=509</a><!-- m -->

Lars
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#7
Ok Lars, Nimrod & Stephen, this entry from Smith's dictionary has got me thinking ... How generally available were locusts on any given month in the barren Judean desert where Yukhanan lived? (for that matter, where did he get the honey?) Could a man survive on honey alone for even a week?

If the alternate reading did pan out, what a home-run that would be for A.P. huh?
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
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#8
Paul Younan Wrote:Ok Lars, Nimrod & Stephen, this entry from Smith's dictionary has got me thinking ... How generally available were locusts on any given month in the barren Judean desert where Yukhanan lived? (for that matter, where did he get the honey?) Could a man survive on honey alone for even a week?

If the alternate reading did pan out, what a home-run that would be for A.P. huh?

Shlama Akhi Paul:
Do you know how utterly impossible it is to source the peculiar profundity of swarming locusts in the Judean desert between 15 and 26 A.D.? Moreover, Yukhanan HaMat'bil most likely ate other things besides kosher bugs.

Shlama,
Stephen
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#9
I've also checked Hassan bar Bahlul's dictionary. He further explains that it was not locusts that John the Baptist ate but a plant (similar to a carrot?) (Guess this is the source of Payne Smith's parsnip).

Please see attachment for the relevant page from Hassan bar Bahlul's dictionary. Paul, maybe you can elaborate on what bar Bahlul writes about qamtza?

All this is very intriguing. I wonder if it is possible to know which sources bar Bahlul used for his dictionary, and how old they are.


Attached Files
.jpg   bahlul-qamtza-1801.jpg (Size: 187.14 KB / Downloads: 2,880)
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#10
Hello all,

I know I shouldn't really use Wikipedia as a source, but look what they have wrote for "carob". <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carob#cite_note-autogenerated1-0">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carob#cite ... nerated1-0</a><!-- m -->

The Carob tree (from Arabic: ???????? "khar??b" and Hebrew: ???????? Charuv), Ceratonia siliqua, is a leguminous evergreen shrub or tree of the family Leguminosae (pulse family) native to the Mediterranean region. It is cultivated for its edible seed pods. Carobs are also known as St. John's bread. According to tradition of some Christians, St. John the Baptist subsisted on them in the wilderness.[1] A similar legend exists of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai and his son.[2]

Also, I did not ask my priest about this plant in particular, but I will see what he might know. This is an interesting topic nonetheless.

Peace,

-Nimrod Warda-
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#11
Lars Lindgren Wrote:Paul, maybe you can elaborate on what bar Bahlul writes about qamtza?

Very interesting indeed! bar-Bahlul is defining it not as a "carrot/parsnip", but rather "the hearts of a root in the desert of Marwan mountain" ("lebbawathe de eqra de dabra .... be gezartha de marwan"). I think Payne read "gezara" to mean "carrot", in reality its "gezarta" meaning "island, mountain, etc."

Is there a Marwan in the Judean desert?
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
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#12
shlom lkhun,

-The Arabic says that it is "a wild plant which resembles the carrot"
-The Syriac says that he eat from the "heart of a wild root"

"qamso" seems to be the general name for a type of root plant which looks like a carrot.
"qamso dbaro" <= The wild variety <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun
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#13
So the theme of this thread is that John did NOT eat locusts, but a different plant/root? Thus every Bibe out there that says locusts is in error? MARI says locusts.
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear Elohim, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. Ecc.12:13
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#14
Hello again,

Not to confuse anybody, but the short paper below has information on edible plants/roots from the Judaen Dessert.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://198.62.75.1/www1/ofm/sbf/Books/LA52/LA52347Rubin_Melagria.pdf">http://198.62.75.1/www1/ofm/sbf/Books/L ... lagria.pdf</a><!-- m -->

So, if some Jewish monks lived this life in the 5th century, is it not a possibility that John the Baptist did the same?

Push b'shayna/b'shlama,

-Nimrod Warda-
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#15
Shlama,

There are certain types of locusts which are a delicatessen in some cultures (especially among Yemenite Jews), there are also some plants in the area that produce a milky like substance from the inside which can be consumed.

Interestingly the Damkhalte speaks of John living off of milk and honey.

???Matthew 4:4 and Mark 1:6, for example, talk of John the Baptist having lived off 'locusts and wild honey,' which is unusual to an ascetic since locust is a non-vegetarian diet. Tatian felt free to resolve the problem by modifying the text. He substituted 'locusts' with 'milk of the mountains,' the food of the promised land which is mentioned in the Old Testament (Deuteronomy 6.3).??? <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://sor.cua.edu/Bible/Diatessaron.html">http://sor.cua.edu/Bible/Diatessaron.html</a><!-- m -->

James A. Kelhoffer has written an entire book on the subject: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://books.google.com/books?id=uzTcB8yMnrcC">http://books.google.com/books?id=uzTcB8yMnrcC</a><!-- m --> "Introduction and the status quaestionis concerning the diet of John the Baptist -- Locust/grasshopper eating in ancient Near Eastern and Greco-Roman antiquity -- The Baptist's "wild honey" -- "Locusts and wild honey" in the synoptic interpretation: The historical baptist, Mark, Matthew (and Luke) -- John's diet as 'vegetarian' and a model of asceticism: 'Locusts,' wild honey and the imitatio Iohannis in patristic and subsequent Christian interpretation -- Epilogue: "Locusts and wild honey" in retrospect: PAIDEIA and early Christian biblical interpretation"

Shlama
Ya'aqub Younan-Levine
Aramaica.org
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