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Herodia
#1
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I wanted to ask if this can be confirmed one way or the other by the Peshitta text...After I checked all the English translations which are derived from the Alexandrian and Byznatine text types I note that they follow their particular Greek reading, The Alexandrian and its English translations seem to make a contradiction in the two verses though, where one shows that the dancing woman was the Daughter of Herodias, and the other shows that it was Herodias herself that danced before Herod.... or at least says that the Daughter of Herodias had the same name as her Mother...but Josephus says that the dancing Daughter was named 'Salome'.

The Byzantine and its English translations though, show that in both verses it was indeed the Daughter of Herodias that danced before Herod, but does not name her as the Alexandrian text seems to do.

Then I went and looked at the Peshitta text and its English translations and they all show that it was indeed the Daughter of Herodias that danced before Herod and does not name her either.

But in Mr. Bauscher's translation, which I have here shows (against all the other Peshitta English Translations that I have seen) in Matthew 14:6 "But when Herodus' birthday came, Herodia danced before the dinner guests and she pleased Herodus."

But in Mr. Bauscher's same translation of the other account in Mark 6:22 it reads "And the Daughter of Herodia came in, and she danced, and she pleased Herodus...

So I ask...does the text Mr. Bauscher uses show this to be the right reading? I will check his interlinear. But is there a textual contradiction here in the Peshitta manuscripts like there seems to be in the Alexandrian texts?

Paul Younan's translation reads thus below, and follows Murdock, Etheridge, & Lamsa.... I don't have the other English Peshitta translations available to compare them and if someone wants to show them here it would be good...

In Matthew 14:6 "But when the birthday of Herodus occurred, the daughter of Herodia danced before the guests and she pleased Herodus." -Younan

In Mark 6:22 "And the daughter of Herodia entered and danced and pleased Herodus and those who were reclining with him." -Younan

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#2
shlomo Thirdwoe,

Paul Younan's translation is the accurate one for both Matthew's and Marks's, according to the Peshitta/o Text.

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun
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#3
...

Is the same Peshitta text being used to translate both English translations of Mr. Younan's and Mr. Bauscher's and if not, is there a variant here in the Aramaic texts?

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#4
shlomo Thirdwoe,

It is the same Text; there is no variance in regards to these verses within the Peshitta/o Text.

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun
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#5
...

That is very interesting:

Would this be true of this passage as well then?

The Byzantine- Majority Greek text in English reads,

Esposito: John 7:8 ???You go up to this feast. I am not yet going up to this feast, because My time has not yet been fulfilled." When He had said these things to them, He remained in Galilee. But when His brothers had gone up, then also He Himself went up to the feast, not openly, but in private.???

The Alexandrian- Minority Greek text in English reads,
NASB95: John 7:8 "Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come. Having said these things to them, He stayed in Galilee. But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up, not publicly, but as if, in secret.???

Bauscher: John 7:8 ???You go up to this feast; I am not going up to this feast, because my time in not yet finished. He said these things as he remained in Galilee. But when his brothers went up to the feast, then he also went up, not openly, but as secretly.???

Younan: John 7:8 ???You go up to this feast. I will not go up to this feast now because my time is not yet finished. He said these things, and he remained in Galeela. But when his brothers went up to the feast, then even he went up, not openly but as in secret.

I note that Mr. Younan's translation is like those of Lamsa, Murdock, Ethreridge.... but Mr. Bauscher's is not, but rather lines up with the Alexandrian Minority Greek Text here.

As with the other passage above, I am wondering if there is a variant in the Peshitta text used by Paul Younan & David Bauscher, if they have used the same text...

Has Mr. Bauscher got it wrong here in translation, or is there a Peshitta text that has this reading he has in this passage?

What I have been looking at is the relationship of the Greek text types with the Aramaic texts to see, when the Greek shows a variant that makes a contradiction/error in the passage, if the Peshitta also has this, or rather corrects it by its reading.

Since it is believed that The Peshitta has the earlier and true to the original reading, then I want to see which text type in the Greek is the more accurate in these two places. And since Mr. Bauscher says that the Text he used to translate his English NT is a completly faithful copy of the Original Aramaic Text and in his belief therefore error free, I am wondering if it is in the text he used at all, or is it just in his translation that this reading exists...if not, does he borrow these readings from the Greek text?

And my reason for bringing this out here is not to belittle Mr. Bauscher or his translation, but to know if these contradictions/errors in the Greek Minority texts are at all present in the Aramaic text/texts.

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#6
shlomo Thirdwoe,

Here it's an issue of properly rendering the Aramaic into English (incidentally again there's no variance here):

John 7.8: ... eno lo soleqno hosho l'ad'eedo hono...
eno => I
lo => not
soleq => Going up (He)
no => I
hosho => now
l => to
'ad'eedo => feast
hono => this

Word for Word:
I not going up I now to feast this

Proper translation:
I will not go up to this feast now.

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keefa-morun
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#7
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Ok, looks like Mr. Bauscher did not go with his interlinear text or made a mistake in his English NT Bible text.

For at Matthew 14:6 in his Interlinear it reads thus.... reading right to left top line to bottom line. The Aramaic letters did not come out right here.

(of Herodus) odwrhd (of the birth) hdly (at the house) tyb (but) Nyd (it was) awh (when) dk
(of Herodia) aydwrhd (the daughter) htrb (danced) tdqr
(the dinner guests) akymo (before) Mdq
(Herodus) odwrhl (himself) hl (& she pleased) trpsw

Also at Mark 6:22 he has.

(she danced) tdqr (of Herodia) aydwrhd (the daughter) htrb (& entered) tlew
(Herodus) odwrhl (him) hl (& she pleased) trpsw

So it looks like for this passage Mr. Bauscher either did not agree with the text or made a mistake in not rendering correctly, but the Peshitta tex he uses for his translation does not have the contradiction/error.

For the other passage, in his interlinear it reads thus. And he even has the verse typed out below the interlinear, in which he does not add what is clearly there in the Text of John 7:8.

(this) anh (to feast) adedel (go up) wqo (you) Nwtna
(now) ash (am) ana (going up) qlo (not) al (I) ana
(because) ljm (this) anh (to feast) adedel
(yet) lykde (not) al (my) ylyd (time) anbzd
(is finished) Mls
You go up to this feast; I am not going up to this feast, because My time is not yet finished.


Strange...but I am glad to know that for these two passages in the Peshitta, it does not have the contradictions/errors of the Greek Minority Alexandrian readings for the verses....
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#8
Shlama,

Is Mr. Bauscher's translation from the traditional eastern Aramaic text (for example, the Peshitta as traditionally used by the CoE and found within Paul Younan's Interlinear) or is it a translation of the British and Foreign Bible Society Edition of the Syriac Peshitto (1905)?

Matthew 14:6... (there seems to be no difference between the Aramaic and the 1905 Bible Society text for this particular verse) "But when the birthday of Herodus [Herodia] came/occurred, the daughter of Herodus danced before the guests and she pleased Herodus."

Aramaic:
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Sdwrhd hdly tyb Nyd 0wh dk
Mdq 0ydwrhd htrb tdqr
Sdwrhl hl trp4w 0kyms[/font]


Aramaic Peshitta published by Bible Society in Israel 1986:
[font=Levistam (V1.1)]Sdwrhd hdly tyb Nyd 0wh dk
Mdq 0ydwrhd htrb tdqr
Sdwrhl hl trp4w 0kyms[/font]


Jewish Aramaic dialect (Aran Younan codex, Jewish Neo-Aramaic):
[font=Levistam (V1.1)]hydwrh l$ hdly tyb Nyd 0wh dk
Mdq 0ydwrh l$ htrb tdqr
hydwrhl hl trp4w 0kyms[/font]


Peshitta translated in modern Hebrew:
[font=Levistam (V1.1)]swdrwh l$ wtdlh Mwy hyh r$0k lb0
h0cmw Mybsmh ynpl hydwrwh tb hdqr
swdrwh yny9b Nx[/font]


Biblia Peshitta en Espanol:
Pero habiendo llegado el cumplea??os de Herodes, la hija de Herod??a bail?? ante los invitados y fue del agrado de Herodes.

All of these agree with Paul Younan's Interlinear.

The "Complete Jewish Bible" (translated from Greek) reads: "However, at Herod's birthday celebration, Herodias' daughter danced before the company and pleased Herod"

Shlama,
Ya'aqub Younan-Levine
Aramaica.org
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#9
shlom lokh oH Yaaqub,

I think he is using the 1905 (The copy that is available online)

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun
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#10
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His Aramaic interlinear text of 1905 shows the correct Aramaic wording and the correct English word under the text is there in both passages, but for some odd reason, he goes with the Alexandrian Greek Minority text readings for those two verses in his Aramaic English NT translation, thus perpetuating the Minority Greek contradiction/errors there.

If David was still a part of this forum I would ask him about this...I guess I could try his website/email....

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#11
Thirdwoe Wrote:...

His Aramaic interlinear text of 1905 shows the correct Aramaic wording and the correct English word under the text is there in both passages, but for some odd reason, he goes with the Alexandrian Greek Minority text readings for those two verses in his Aramaic English NT translation, thus perpetuating the Minority Greek contradiction/errors there.

If David was still a part of this forum I would ask him about this...I guess I could try his website/email....

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Shlama,

That is quite interesting. I have'nt purchased his translation yet. Thanks for the information.

Push b'shlama
Ya'aqub Younan-Levine
Aramaica.org
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#12
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To folow up on this post, I receieved an answer back from David Bauscher about his Peshitta NT Translation. Below is the response...

"I had errors in those two verses in the Plain English which were oversights on my part. The interlinear readings are correct in both places. I have corrected them and the correct readings are now in my 3rd edition which I released a few weeks ago.

I have found that the Peshitta NT agrees with the Byzantine text about 75% of the time where the Alexandrian differs from the Byzantine.

Both Greek texts are demonstrated to come from The Peshitta, and many differences are merely translational differences or misreadings of an Aramaic word, on the part of a Greek translator translating Aramaic differently from the Byzantine Greek translator (which was probably the earliest translation) .

Both texts were produced in the first century from 1st cent. Herodian Aramaic script in the Peshitta. This I have documented in my books.

Thanks for your interest and your corrections. May God reward your desire to know his word better.


Dave

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