04-02-2010, 05:11 AM
Aaron S Wrote:It's not a view derived from simply reading Paul's writings. It's a method of approaching his writings in which you assume Paul is zealous for Torah and somehow, although not always clear, teaches the same: it's not always a simple task, but it's founded in second guessing the mainstream opinion of Paul which asserts that he abolished Torah to establish Christianity. Please read Jeremy's posts in this thread regarding Paul, as the fruits of our methodology is laid out. I understand very well how he could be seen as a heretic, but that's not the only light he can be read in. If you would like to know more about Paul's background and life, please read The Letter Writer: Paul's Background and Torah Perspective by Tim Hegg.
At the risk of overstaying my welcome here in this thread, I can't help but wonder what other light there could be to possibly judge the teachings of someone claiming to be one of the People than the light of Torah. In the light of Torah, there is no other way to see Paul except for what he was. Someone who had issue with the People and yet did not have the proper knowledge to put a full end to them AS the People of Israel. It was his intent, else he would not have contradicted what defines them as a People. The only light that I can see him in that might possibly warrant the idea of God having used Paul's decision to go against the People is found in Jeremiah 17:5-13. That would be to separate, as Jesus himself taught, those who are of a pure heart and willing mind from those who would use the light of the People for purposes of harm and/or status. God did not choose the path for Paul though. Those of knowledge among the People, as seen in Acts, did not (at first) choose to let Paul speak for a time because they agreed with him, but rather they allowed for it because they were sensitive to the way of Wisdom. If one of the People call for the Truth, God *will* answer them. Then, we *could* say that Paul did the People a favor by leading away those who might/would only use the People for their own personal gain. But do we say Paul did good? After all, there were those of a good heart and yet unlearned mind who were led astray, and when your identity is wrapped up within a People, to lose it is the hardest and most lonely path to walk. <!-- s
--><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/huh.gif" alt="" title="Huh" /><!-- s --> Often, that was a needless path for many to have walked and given that many did end up having to walk it was not because their hearts were in the wrong ... Paul was very deceptive as he preyed upon the very weak of mind and the most vulnerable in the spirit of the People. I think that is when the Jewish authorities saw the need to step in to take control of the situation. And good that they did. Support in Torah for their decision to do such? Deuteronomy 13:1-11 Quote:The results are thus: It's not as though Paul is sketching a picture of faith that can only exist in a Torahless state: rather, it's not Torah that brings about the promises of Yah, but faith, indeed the faith of Abraham, which brings about obedience.
God did not promise Abraham what it is that you are implying. Human Sacrifice is not part of the "agenda" of God as seen when an :animal: was provided as a replacement for the sacrifice of Abraham's son. That is clear then that Abraham was being shown that this type of sacrifice would not ever be condoned by the One calling to him. God promised Abram that his seed would continue and in fact, he was promised that it was with his seed that the special covenant with God would remain. It is not a covenant of death and rather, a covenant of Life. It is, in truth, this covenant that ensures the continuation of the covenant between God and all of flesh upon the earth (the covenant of Genesis 9). This understanding is a far cry from what it is Paul was teaching and rather, it is more in line with what it is Jesus taught. By the way, the faith of Abraham was not a blind faith and rather it was the faithfulness of Abraham talked about in Torah which was established by the knowledge he already had of the way of God (Genesis 15:1 it was after "these things" that the vision of the Word came to Abraham and therefore it could hardly come with the same implications that are in the type of faith taught by Paul, and of course those who have chosen to trust him, a man).
Quote:Torah is truth, but it's not our hope - our hope is faith in the atonement of our Pesach Yeshua! And these truths, of Torah and of Yeshua, are not in contraposition but are very much inseparable counterparts. All other perversions of this truth is what Paul was working against: but since the perversions can be perceived as equivalents, if not very close matches, his writings can be read as speaking against Torah which is clearly heretical.
Here above are your words that grabbed me so as to not let me go. My original intent was to reply no more as all too often, I have found it far too difficult to speak to those who trust so fully the teachings of Paul. However, I can not let go what it is you said in regard to Torah. TORAH is LIFE. How is that NOT hope? To any who have found their life written in the Word of this People, there is not a doubt where the Word resides; and that is within the People. THAT is the hope that keeps me going. The Psalmist says in Psalm 119 that he has hoped in the Word of the LORD and in Isaiah 9:8 it is clear that the Word is sent into Jacob and has lighted upon Israel. Then, our hope rests with the People, Israel. Never with the sacrifice of another human being. Exodus 23:7 is clear that the idea that Paul had is not one that is derived from the Word as it is directly forbidden. The priests, though they made atonement for the People, NEVER WERE sacrificed for that atonement.
Torah teaches us about service both to ourselves as holders of Life as well as to those around us who also have within them the Breath of Life that comes from God. Torah is not a lesson in sacrifice. In that sense, all it ever does is lay out guidelines for such given that men have insisted upon it being needed to ease their own guilt. Never was part of the guidelines of sacrifice to include that of a literal human sacrifice that steals from another man his breath to justify the life of another who insists to live in their own personal guilt. The cure for that is to turn to the Law of God. <!-- s:inlove: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/inlove.gif" alt=":inlove:" title="In Love" /><!-- s:inlove: --> Psalm 19:7-11, Proverbs 29:18. <!-- s:lookround: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/lookround.gif" alt=":lookround:" title="Look Round" /><!-- s:lookround: -->