03-19-2010, 09:27 AM
Ben Masada Wrote:Shlama,
my name is Jeremy, not Chayim -- that is part of my signature: Chayim b'Moshiach [/i ]-- "Life in Messiah." just to clarify. <!-- s--><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="
Paulus did not teach against the Torah, but did indeed uphold the commandments; what he argued against was Pharisaic observance and demands never made in the Torah. just a few places in Praksees d'Shleekha (Acts) that verify this:
Acts 18:18 -- Paulus shaved his head for a vow. this is a Nazarite vow, the only type in Scripture wherein one is commanded to shave their head. check out Numbers 6 for the details.
21:19-26 -- firstly, they say that thousands of Jewish believers in Messiah also kept the Torah, secondly, that someone was telling them that Paulus taught against the Torah, thirdly, that this was not true, that he kept the Torah, and fourthly, that he needed to make a vow with certain other believers in Messiah in the Temple. this refers again to the Nazarite vow. it requires animal sacrifice, by the way. and the text even says that he was cleansed with these people.
Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
----------------------------
Sorry about the name confusion Jeremy. It is all clear now.
Now, please, read Acts 21:21. The Nazarenes in Jerusalem had been informed that Paul was teaching the Jews among the Gentiles to abandon Moses, to stop circumcising their children and to renounce the Jewish customs. This is to preach against Torah. And with regards to the vow to be fulfilled in the Temple, please, read Acts 21:23.24. Paul had no vow to fulfill. He was coerced by James to join four other Jews who had the vow and give the impression
that he Paul was also an observant of the Law. In other words, he was camouflaged as an observant Jew. "Please, do as we tell you" said James. This was afraid Paul could get arrested, which he was indeed. Paul would never do that willingly because he considered those Jewish things as shadows of things to come. (Col. 2:17)
Shlama,
no prob!
since i posted the passage originally, i would ask you to respond to what verse 24 clearly says -- that what they had been informed of was [i]UNTRUE. he was combating false accusations, and had to step up his observance a notch to show them that he really meant business. and no, he had not originally intended to make a vow. but if you know anything of vows according to the Torah, there doesn't have to be a reason for them. all that matters is that they are fulfilled. concerning the vow of a nazir, this involved animal sacrifice. it doesn't matter how much a "Christian" might be wanting to proselytize a Jewish person, you are just not going to get a Christian who thinks it is okay to go sacrifice animals -- ***i'm assuming of course -- i could be wrong, but from my experience with Christians, this would never be seen as an okay form of proselytizing. the whole animal sacrifice thing is a great taboo, so it is highly unlikely, if not impossible. yet Paulus is willing to do exactly this very thing.
also, that he did not cease valuing circumcision is clearly evident from his own words:
Galatians 5:11
But I, my brothers, if I continue proclaiming to be circumcised, why am I being persecuted? Perhaps the offensiveness of the cross has been annulled?
(Peshitta)
the Aramaic seems very clear about how we should understand the verse. what we have in the Aramaic is a rhetorical question, where the answer is no - the offensiveness of the cross has not been annulled, and that is why, even though he still advocated circumcision (for the right reason, mind you, not the Pharisaic/Rabbinical reason), he was still running into opposition from those who otherwise should have had no problem with him. now this is just one passage to deal with. i'm telling you, start reading the Peshitta itself, and your perceptions of Paulus are very likely to begin to change.
the contents of the Torah are shadows of things to come. that is no lie. but you're understanding it from a negative point of view. the contents ARE shadows. present tense. they are shadows today. they haven't ceased to be. if it were otherwise, he was upholding phantoms, because, like i mentioned before, he still kept the festivals and taught others to, as well. he still taught circumcision, and even had Timothy circumcised. those are not the actions of an anti-nomian person.
one cannot understand Paulus without first realizing that his actions, like anyone's, determine how we should understand his words. he is repeatedly shown giving honor to the Torah in a Biblical fashion, and so the words that you are having difficulty accepting of his need to be re-evaluated, because either you're misunderstanding his words, or else you should throw his words away and accept his life as a Torah-observant Benjaminite, as his actions clearly show him to be.
but i would rather encourage you to start reading the Peshitta itself before you make any more judgments on the man, since whether you agree with him or not at the moment, you appear to be making accusations against him based on a misinformed position, and IF that turns out to be the case, then you could be guilty of lashon hara. nobody wants that against them. so get to know him through his own words first, and reserve judgment until you've done so. can you read Hebrew? Aramaic? if so, do you read the Peshitta? as a Torah-observant individual, i can say that some aspects of Paulus didn't make entirely complete sense until i read his books in the Aramaic. so i can personally attest to the benefit of doing so.
Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy