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Aaron S Wrote:Shlama sittingShiva,
Your methods for understanding how things work with respect to Paul are strange.
It is undeniably the case that Paul got the stamp of approval from the apostles...
we can gather that from the writings and from history surrounding what is called 'canonization' which was based upon the writings of the Netzarim (which accepts Paul).
Stop assuming that Paul invented Christianity and hated Israel and try to see his words from all sides...
he does seem to under-emphasize the living by Torah, but much of how you understand Paul comes from Christianity, not the Netzarim.
1. Paul did not create Christianity: Rome did.
2. Paul did not hate Israel: Rome did.
Why do people think Paul did either 1 or 2? Because that's what has been given to us as a legacy of Rome.
The irony of your reply is that you have failed to realize that I was addressing your view of God rather than your view of Paul. While you claim that my view of Paul is given to me of Christianity, I do not see the great revelation of your view apart from what it is they claim. You both worship a man over the Most High God. If this were not true, then you would not have been willing to place the blame on God before you did Paul if his teachings were found to be contrary from what it is Jesus taught. I tell you now that his teachings WERE contrary to what it is Jesus taught and yet, I assure you that it is not the fault of God that Paul chose the path he did.
If anyone has given Paul the benefit of the doubt, it would be me (after all, it meant the separation from many of my loved ones who are also worshipers of the Pauline religion). But in my mind and in my heart, I could not escape the fact that his words were not only contradicting what it is Jesus taught, but they were contradicting what it is I know, as a human being, of life in general. Then the greater weight of the accusations I have toward him is not that he was preaching against a People (though that much is clear and a crime, in my opinion, in and of itself), but against the way of Life set forth into motion by the "hand" of God.
Take clear note, as I have, of how it is that you have defended Paul even at the expense/risk of placing blame on the Creator of all Life. Tell me now that it is not a man you are worshiping over God. Paul had not the problem to be called a god by others. It didn't have to be Jesus his followers worshiped as long as they would carry forth the spirit against Israel and the way that they, as a people, had been set on by the God of Israel. You can call my view strange and yet, I find it more strange that you would openly admit before us all that you believe God could be blamed for wrongdoing before Paul, a man, could be. <!-- s:wow: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wow.gif" alt=":wow:" title="Wow" /><!-- s:wow: -->
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Shlama sittingShiva,
Thanks for sharing <!-- s  --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt=" " title="Smile" /><!-- s --> I feel that we've progressed in this discussion and have represented our ideas. My question regarding Paul and YHWH is founded upon my acceptance of the book of the Acts of the Shlichim. See also 2Peter 3:15
Blessings, Aaron
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It's not a view derived from simply reading Paul's writings. It's a method of approaching his writings in which you assume Paul is zealous for Torah and somehow, although not always clear, teaches the same: it's not always a simple task, but it's founded in second guessing the mainstream opinion of Paul which asserts that he abolished Torah to establish Christianity. Please read Jeremy's posts in this thread regarding Paul, as the fruits of our methodology is laid out. I understand very well how he could be seen as a heretic, but that's not the only light he can be read in. If you would like to know more about Paul's background and life, please read The Letter Writer: Paul's Background and Torah Perspective by Tim Hegg.
The results are thus: It's not as though Paul is sketching a picture of faith that can only exist in a Torahless state: rather, it's not Torah that brings about the promises of Yah, but faith, indeed the faith of Abraham, which brings about obedience.
Torah is truth, but it's not our hope - our hope is faith in the atonement of our Pesach Yeshua! And these truths, of Torah and of Yeshua, are not in contraposition but are very much inseparable counterparts. All other perversions of this truth is what Paul was working against: but since the perversions can be perceived as equivalents, if not very close matches, his writings can be read as speaking against Torah which is clearly heretical.
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Aaron S Wrote:It's not a view derived from simply reading Paul's writings. It's a method of approaching his writings in which you assume Paul is zealous for Torah and somehow, although not always clear, teaches the same: it's not always a simple task, but it's founded in second guessing the mainstream opinion of Paul which asserts that he abolished Torah to establish Christianity. Please read Jeremy's posts in this thread regarding Paul, as the fruits of our methodology is laid out. I understand very well how he could be seen as a heretic, but that's not the only light he can be read in. If you would like to know more about Paul's background and life, please read The Letter Writer: Paul's Background and Torah Perspective by Tim Hegg.
At the risk of overstaying my welcome here in this thread, I can't help but wonder what other light there could be to possibly judge the teachings of someone claiming to be one of the People than the light of Torah. In the light of Torah, there is no other way to see Paul except for what he was. Someone who had issue with the People and yet did not have the proper knowledge to put a full end to them AS the People of Israel. It was his intent, else he would not have contradicted what defines them as a People. The only light that I can see him in that might possibly warrant the idea of God having used Paul's decision to go against the People is found in Jeremiah 17:5-13. That would be to separate, as Jesus himself taught, those who are of a pure heart and willing mind from those who would use the light of the People for purposes of harm and/or status. God did not choose the path for Paul though. Those of knowledge among the People, as seen in Acts, did not (at first) choose to let Paul speak for a time because they agreed with him, but rather they allowed for it because they were sensitive to the way of Wisdom. If one of the People call for the Truth, God *will* answer them. Then, we *could* say that Paul did the People a favor by leading away those who might/would only use the People for their own personal gain. But do we say Paul did good? After all, there were those of a good heart and yet unlearned mind who were led astray, and when your identity is wrapped up within a People, to lose it is the hardest and most lonely path to walk. <!-- s  --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/huh.gif" alt=" " title="Huh" /><!-- s --> Often, that was a needless path for many to have walked and given that many did end up having to walk it was not because their hearts were in the wrong ... Paul was very deceptive as he preyed upon the very weak of mind and the most vulnerable in the spirit of the People. I think that is when the Jewish authorities saw the need to step in to take control of the situation. And good that they did. Support in Torah for their decision to do such? Deuteronomy 13:1-11
Quote:The results are thus: It's not as though Paul is sketching a picture of faith that can only exist in a Torahless state: rather, it's not Torah that brings about the promises of Yah, but faith, indeed the faith of Abraham, which brings about obedience.
God did not promise Abraham what it is that you are implying. Human Sacrifice is not part of the "agenda" of God as seen when an :animal: was provided as a replacement for the sacrifice of Abraham's son. That is clear then that Abraham was being shown that this type of sacrifice would not ever be condoned by the One calling to him. God promised Abram that his seed would continue and in fact, he was promised that it was with his seed that the special covenant with God would remain. It is not a covenant of death and rather, a covenant of Life. It is, in truth, this covenant that ensures the continuation of the covenant between God and all of flesh upon the earth (the covenant of Genesis 9). This understanding is a far cry from what it is Paul was teaching and rather, it is more in line with what it is Jesus taught. By the way, the faith of Abraham was not a blind faith and rather it was the faithfulness of Abraham talked about in Torah which was established by the knowledge he already had of the way of God (Genesis 15:1 it was after "these things" that the vision of the Word came to Abraham and therefore it could hardly come with the same implications that are in the type of faith taught by Paul, and of course those who have chosen to trust him, a man).
Quote:Torah is truth, but it's not our hope - our hope is faith in the atonement of our Pesach Yeshua! And these truths, of Torah and of Yeshua, are not in contraposition but are very much inseparable counterparts. All other perversions of this truth is what Paul was working against: but since the perversions can be perceived as equivalents, if not very close matches, his writings can be read as speaking against Torah which is clearly heretical.
Here above are your words that grabbed me so as to not let me go. My original intent was to reply no more as all too often, I have found it far too difficult to speak to those who trust so fully the teachings of Paul. However, I can not let go what it is you said in regard to Torah. TORAH is LIFE. How is that NOT hope? To any who have found their life written in the Word of this People, there is not a doubt where the Word resides; and that is within the People. THAT is the hope that keeps me going. The Psalmist says in Psalm 119 that he has hoped in the Word of the LORD and in Isaiah 9:8 it is clear that the Word is sent into Jacob and has lighted upon Israel. Then, our hope rests with the People, Israel. Never with the sacrifice of another human being. Exodus 23:7 is clear that the idea that Paul had is not one that is derived from the Word as it is directly forbidden. The priests, though they made atonement for the People, NEVER WERE sacrificed for that atonement.
Torah teaches us about service both to ourselves as holders of Life as well as to those around us who also have within them the Breath of Life that comes from God. Torah is not a lesson in sacrifice. In that sense, all it ever does is lay out guidelines for such given that men have insisted upon it being needed to ease their own guilt. Never was part of the guidelines of sacrifice to include that of a literal human sacrifice that steals from another man his breath to justify the life of another who insists to live in their own personal guilt. The cure for that is to turn to the Law of God. <!-- s:inlove: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/inlove.gif" alt=":inlove:" title="In Love" /><!-- s:inlove: --> Psalm 19:7-11, Proverbs 29:18. <!-- s:lookround: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/lookround.gif" alt=":lookround:" title="Look Round" /><!-- s:lookround: -->
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sittingShiva Wrote:Here above are your words that grabbed me so as to not let me go. My original intent was to reply no more as all too often, I have found it far too difficult to speak to those who trust so fully the teachings of Paul. However, I can not let go what it is you said in regard to Torah. TORAH is LIFE. How is that NOT hope? To any who have found their life written in the Word of this People, there is not a doubt where the Word resides; and that is within the People. THAT is the hope that keeps me going. The Psalmist says in Psalm 119 that he has hoped in the Word of the LORD and in Isaiah 9:8 it is clear that the Word is sent into Jacob and has lighted upon Israel. Then, our hope rests with the People, Israel. Never with the sacrifice of another human being. Exodus 23:7 is clear that the idea that Paul had is not one that is derived from the Word as it is directly forbidden. The priests, though they made atonement for the People, NEVER WERE sacrificed for that atonement.
Torah teaches us about service both to ourselves as holders of Life as well as to those around us who also have within them the Breath of Life that comes from God. Torah is not a lesson in sacrifice. In that sense, all it ever does is lay out guidelines for such given that men have insisted upon it being needed to ease their own guilt. Never was part of the guidelines of sacrifice to include that of a literal human sacrifice that steals from another man his breath to justify the life of another who insists to live in their own personal guilt. The cure for that is to turn to the Law of God. <!-- s:inlove: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/inlove.gif" alt=":inlove:" title="In Love" /><!-- s:inlove: --> Psalm 19:7-11, Proverbs 29:18. <!-- s:lookround: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/lookround.gif" alt=":lookround:" title="Look Round" /><!-- s:lookround: -->
Romans 3:20
How is the Torah not our hope? It's not our hope insofar as our flesh cannot fulfill the righteousness of Torah by doing works of Torah... we do not put hope in our deeds but rather in He who can give life! I'm not saying that the Torah is bad, I'm just saying its purpose is to reveal sin, and one does not put hope in the revelation of sin but rather one walks with Yah in a life of purity through his Spirit according to the blueprint of Torah: for me Torah is still extremely important to the faith (don't get me wrong here). I never mentioned anything about human sacrifice, but since you brought it up: what do you believe regarding the death of Yeshua?
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Ben Masada Wrote:Dawid Wrote:Ben, Greek or Aramaic aside, when Paul says "end" he most clearly means "goal." This is a common use of tellos in Greek, and of the Aramaic term (which I've forgotten at the moment.) ---------------------------------
When the goal is achieved, the contest is over. What's the difference? If Jesus was the goal of the Law, it means that no one else is required to observe it. And that's exactly what Jesus did not mean in Matthew 5:17-19. He left it very clear that "whoever breaks, and I mean "rejects" the least significant of these commands and teaches others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of God. And whoever fulfills and teaches these commands shall be great in the Kingdom of God." I don't think that is a necessary conclusion from the term "goal." If I say that my goal in cooking extra food on Friday is to observe the Shabbat, that doesn't mean that once the goal has been achieved it no longer has to be done.
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I didn't say the goal was to cook. The goal was to observe.
If we say that "the goal of Messiah is the Torah" then we are saying that the purpose of the Messiah is for us to observe the Torah.
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Shlama Achai,
What are you talking about Ben? We all agree here on observance of Torah... we're just discussing the underpinnings <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt=" " title="Smile" /><!-- s -->
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Ben Masada Wrote:Dawid Wrote:I didn't say the goal was to cook. The goal was to observe.
If we say that "the goal of Messiah is the Torah" then we are saying that the purpose of the Messiah is for us to observe the Torah. ------------------
That's what I call to close a conversation with a golden key. If you were Jewish, I would tell you now to go ahead and observe Torah, which was Jesus' goal. (Mat. 5:17-19) Since you are not, apply yourself to the Seven Noahide laws, and good luck! Nice to talk with you. How do you know I'm not Jewish?
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Aaron S Wrote:Romans 3:20
You say that Torah is extremely important to your faith and yet, if you read on in the above passage that you gave (verses 24 and 25, I believe) it directly contradicts what is written in Exodus 23:7-8 ... or, if you would like, seen from a different light, it rather proves what is said in Exodus 23:7-8, that is, what Paul said. No man is justified by the shedding of another man's blood ... not ever, not even once has this proved to be truth. What it did do, that is the teaching of Paul that the literal sacrifice of Jesus was the atonement for our sins, is prove true the words of Exodus 23:8. Just think about it honestly. Jesus was clear of his mission and it was not the mission in which so many are holding to because they are trusting rather the words of Paul than the knowledge of Torah which Jesus was confirming as truth.
Quote:How is the Torah not our hope? It's not our hope insofar as our flesh cannot fulfill the righteousness of Torah by doing works of Torah... we do not put hope in our deeds but rather in He who can give life! I'm not saying that the Torah is bad, I'm just saying its purpose is to reveal sin, and one does not put hope in the revelation of sin but rather one walks with Yah in a life of purity through his Spirit according to the blueprint of Torah: for me Torah is still extremely important to the faith (don't get me wrong here).
John 5:38-39 that is the words attributed to Jesus and since the Scriptures he taught from was the Tanach rather than the NT which did not exist at the time, it can be made clear what he was speaking of in regard to life did not mean eternal life of the individual Psalm 102:11-28. As for the way that he viewed the righteousness of the People which ensures the Life of the People continues, that is found in Deuteronomy 6:24-25 and Deuteronomy 30:10-18. There is ONLY ONE Who is Eternal and He is the Creator of Life. He established the People to be a light in the world because, as individuals, we ALL have an end. The seed was the promise of life continued. The promise to us as individuals is that if we observe and do that which is commanded, our seed will remain on the earth.
Then again I have to ask you, how is Torah NOT the Word of Hope?
OH ... and what is the complaint so many have that Torah is what brings about knowledge of sin? Is it not understood what is said in Isaiah 53:11,12? It ALSO brings about the knowledge of that which is good. No wonder what is said in Ezekiel 18:20-28 is ignored to rather be replaced by something completely opposite of the greatest hope given in the Word of the People ... even the hope written in the lives of the People of Torah. <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/huh.gif" alt=" " title="Huh" /><!-- s --> That is, with knowledge there is choice ... and where there is choice, there is TRUE freedom. Psalm 51:11-13
It is only guilt that so many run from ... and why? Guilt gives us the reason to take notice of our ways and ultimately, it should be the reason to change our ways for good.
Quote:what do you believe regarding the death of Yeshua?
I do not know that Jesus died in the way most believe and in fact, the evidence (to me at least) points toward the conclusion that he did not actually die on the cross. Regardless, I find it horrific that he would have had to endure such ... and then, I find it tragic that so many ignore even worse sufferings (not to undermine his suffering at ALL, mind you) endured of by others of the People simply because they did not have one come after them promising them eternal life, etc. Brings me back again to Exodus 23:7, and then even more .. verse. 8. It has been something that has burdened my mind for so long now ... that so many would rejoice in the sacrifice and suffering of another human being regardless that they claim he was resurrected of the dead. Clearly that part of it as thought of in the literal sense is a lie, no?
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Christians tell me I'm not a Christian.
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And Jews tell you you're not a Jew. Just like old times <!-- s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt=" " title="Smile" /><!-- s -->
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