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Luke 24:1
#1
I am very new to the Aramaic primacy debate; however I am open to learn. The question that I have below will help my understanding if it can be answered correctly.

Both Paul Younan's interlinear translation of the Peshitta and George M. Lamsa's translation of the Peshitta into english contan the the use of english words, "week" and "first" in relation to luke 24:1. Additionally, the Lamsa bible contains the word "day". I am interested to know exactly how they have arrived at these translations, what are the specific aramaic transliterated words that give rise to such translation, do they believe there any Aramaic idioms involved here etc...


May Yah weh bless you.

Claud.
#2
Shlama Claud:
Welcome to the forum. I'm assuming that you don't have the fonts installed and can't read the Estrangelo text, so I've transliterated the first six words of Luke 24:1.

Luke 24:1
Paul Younan's Interlinear Translation
On the first...of the week...now...at dawn...while...dark
..b'khad.........b'shaba.......din...b'shapra....ad...khashok

James Murdock
And on the first day of the week, in the morning, while it was yet dark

John Wesley Etheridge
And on the first (day) of the week, in the morning, while it was yet dark
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George Lamsa
And on the first day of the week, early in the morning while it was yet dark
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A translation can be either strictly literal or slightly paraphrased to give the sense or context. The word day is added by George Lamsa and James Murdock, and bracketed by John Wesley Etheridge to give the grammatical sense and context, while Paul Younan's interlinear is the literal translation and the closest verbatim of this verse. Interlinear translations tend to sacrifice the grammatical order in favour of a literal translation.

Moreover, shaba literally means seven, so b'khad b'shaba literally means in the first in seven . The word shabta literally means Shabbat/seventh. The confusion comes when one tries to superimpose Shabbat over khad b'shaba. The word b'khad can only mean one or first in conjunction with b'shaba.

Shlama,
Stephen Silver
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#3
Stephen,

Thankyou for prompt rely and the resources you have made available.

Using the resources you have made available I have discovered the following.

The aramaic word ???????????????? means sabbath, The aramaic word for seven is ?????? and does not appear in the text of luke 24:1.
There is no equivalent aramaic word for week. The aramaic word ???????????? means one, the aramiac word for first does not appear in the text.
As you have already stated the word "day" has been added.

What I am saying is that First day of the week is not found in the text. Most translators who translated from the greek translated it this way so as to fit the traditionally accepted scenario of a Sunday resurrection.
I am not trying to push any doctrine here, it is a biblical fact that Yeshua rose early on the sabbath, the truth has been hidden due to doctrinal leanings. I would have hoped that the Aramaic primacists would have picked this up, it is abundently clear in the greek!

If this new to you , you will proabably think I am completely mad, I emplore you check it out for yourself.

shlama,

Claud
#4
Shlama Claud:
This topic has been researched here recently. I stand by my statements. The text reads b''khad b'shaba" or "on the first of the week". Otherwise the word b'khad would not appear.

Quote:it is a biblical fact that Yeshua rose early on the sabbath

I'm afraid that you will have to prove your theory some other way. All the best.

Shlama,
Stephen
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#5
Grace and Peace to you Claud
My name is tom and I also first heard of Aramaic Primacy a few weeks ago, i desired to post this on my original topic, but i find it necessary to say here that I am now an Aramaic Primacist. I have ordered the Interlinear from AENT.org I teach at a house gathering of believers in northern kentucky and we are now deeply rooted in studying Torah and are very anxiously awaiting celebrating the feasts in addition to already begininng to celebrate sabbath. I thank everyone who replied to my original post, the humility here encouraged my desire to learn from you. So I encourage you Claud to keep learning humbly as God has very obviously resisted the proud 'scholars' of our day and gave His grace and learning to the humble. Stay a learner, we are all learners in Messiah's Kingdom.

May the Favor of our Lord, Yeshua the Messiah rest upon you.
tom a servant of The Messiah
#6
Shlama Claud:
I found a post by Paul Younan with a list of the seven days of the week.

by Paul Younan on Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:46 am
(1) Khad b'Shabba (first-of-seven)
(2) Treyn b'Shabba (second-of-seven)
(3) Tlatha b'Shabba (third-of-seven)
(4) Arbaa b'Shabba (fourth-of-seven)
(5) Khamsha b'Shabba (five-of-seven)
(6) Arubtha (setting)
(7) Shabtha (seventh)

See how one sticks out?

Whereas the Jewish names of the days are as follows:

(1) Yom Rishon (first day)
(2) Yom Sheni (second day)
(3) Yom Shlishi (third day)
(4) Yom Arevi (fourth day)
(5) Yom Khamishi (fifth day)
(6) Yom Shishi (sixth day)
(7) Shabbath (seventh)

As we can see the first day of the week (Sunday, if you will) is called Khad b'Shabba.

Shlama,
Stephen
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#7
ForHisRenown Wrote:Grace and Peace to you Claud
My name is tom and I also first heard of Aramaic Primacy a few weeks ago, i desired to post this on my original topic, but i find it necessary to say here that I am now an Aramaic Primacist. I have ordered the Interlinear from AENT.org I teach at a house gathering of believers in northern kentucky and we are now deeply rooted in studying Torah and are very anxiously awaiting celebrating the feasts in addition to already begininng to celebrate sabbath. I thank everyone who replied to my original post, the humility here encouraged my desire to learn from you. So I encourage you Claud to keep learning humbly as God has very obviously resisted the proud 'scholars' of our day and gave His grace and learning to the humble. Stay a learner, we are all learners in Messiah's Kingdom.

May the Favor of our Lord, Yeshua the Messiah rest upon you.
tom a servant of The Messiah


I've been reading recently through a decent amount of Peshitta primacy material, the comments on this message board, some interlinear, and recently a copy of Bauscher's NT. I'm curious about why there seems to be a universal urge to start celebrating festivals and such within the Peshitta primacy folks. Did I miss something?
#8
It seems clear that Yeshua was already risen when the women arrived at the tomb on Sunday morning. However, it is not clear when the resurrection occurred.

Otto
#9
Quote:I've been reading recently through a decent amount of Peshitta primacy material, the comments on this message board, some interlinear, and recently a copy of Bauscher's NT. I'm curious about why there seems to be a universal urge to start celebrating festivals and such within the Peshitta primacy folks. Did I miss something?

Shlama Akhi Doug:
When I first got involved in Messianic Judaism (Hebrew Christianity) in 1972, I became very zealous in my participatory celebrations of Torah holy days, such as weekly Shabbat and the annular Holy Days of Pesakh, Rosh HaShanna, Yom Kippur, Sukkot and the Jewish cultural celebrations of Khanukah (Feast of Dedication) and Purim, while discouraging the celebration of non-Torah holidays such as Christmas and Easter. Some of the newer members of the forum have purchased MARI-P.E.A.C.E. AENT by Andrew Roth and this has sparked a renewed zeal in the observance of Torah. It is instructive to know the reason for the renewed zeal. Being zealous about the Bible takes many forms and I think I speak for many here, that we are very happy to accommodate a renewed zeal concerning the written WORD of Alaha.
Now when it comes to Aramaic Primacy, it is my sincere hope that this same zeal will be faithfully applied to the truthful rendering of the WORD of Alaha.

Shlama,
Stephen
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#10
It makes sense to me that someone who is already Messianic would find the new Aramaic texts more in line with what they are doing, if for no other reason than the various divine names are properly translated. It just seemed to me that starting to take Aramaic seriously as the original NT language also seemed to steer people towards Messianic worship practices. I am curious why that is.
#11
Doug in CO Wrote:It makes sense to me that someone who is already Messianic would find the new Aramaic texts more in line with what they are doing, if for no other reason than the various divine names are properly translated. It just seemed to me that starting to take Aramaic seriously as the original NT language also seemed to steer people towards Messianic worship practices. I am curious why that is.

Shlama Akhi Doug:
Dare I say that it is the stimulated interest in the Hebrew roots of Christianity. Aramaic Primacy is the most refined offering of the Assyrian people to the world. This generation is seeing the fruition of Aramaic Primacy coupled with the strong zeal of the CoE and the Christian sect of Netzarim Judaism. I'm a Christian of Jewish descent and have spent over 35 years in the Messianic "bubble", so to speak. Judaism and Christianity are not mutually exclusive, as some seem to think. I think this is why we are seeing a zealous response to some of the posts that straddle the *cusp of two world/spiritual views.

*cusp-a projecting point where two arcs meet, as in the internal curve of an arc

Shlama,
Stephen
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#12
Stephen,
First of all let me apologise if I have in anyway upset you,

Your quote below suggests to me that have not taken well to what I have said.
"This topic has been researched here recently. I stand by my statements. The text reads b''khad b'shaba" or "on the first of the week". Otherwise the word b'khad would not appear."

The fact that the topic has been researched recently is not relevant to our debate. You are indeed entitled to stand by your comments. However, I say this with love; your comment, ???The text reads b''khad b'shaba" or "on the first of [the week". Otherwise the word b'khad would not appear." is inaccurate, I am not saying this to be argumentative, I am not trying to trump you or belittle you in anyway. I am someone who seeks biblical truth and this the only reason for challenging what you have said.
I am not going to try and convince I shall merely present the facts as they stand. b''khad b'shaba" or "on the first of the week" as you call it is not present in the text, how do I know?, let me explain, b''khad b'shaba" or d'Had,b'$ab'a` or even D'KHaD,B'SHaB'aA in aramaic is represented as ???????????????????????? which means one into
sabbath which is an idiomatic expression for Sunday. However, notice what is actually written in Aramaic ???????????? ????????????????
in the text.
The ancient Aramaic Targum called Pseudo-Jonathan, which is dated to before the ministry of Messiah Yeshua, renders the end of Gen. 1:5 ("the first day"), as the following:

???????? ??????

...which is transliterated yoma khada (literally, "day one"). A later Aramaic Targum (Onkelos) renders the "first day" as yom khad:

?????? ????

Since Aramaic and Hebrew are pretty similar, the evidence indicates that the first day ("Sunday") was not known as khad b'shabat at the time of Messiah. Usage of this phrase evolved to later mean Sunday, probably 2nd century, and this should not be used to support understanding it that way at the time of Messiah. The more likely scenario is the the one in relation to Sabbath is counting towards Pentecost.
What would "First of the Sabbaths" have meant to a 1st-century Jew? Is there such a thing that would have been understood by those living at that time in Judea?
Absolutely! In fact, Luke 6:1 gives us a clue regarding this phrase:
LUKE 6:1 Now it happened on the SECOND Sabbath after the FIRST that He went through the grainfields. And His disciples plucked the heads of grain and ate them, rubbing them in their hands. (NKJV)
What is "the Second Sabbath after the First," and how does it tie in to "one of the sabbaths" mentioned in the Gospels in relation to Yeshua's resurrection? We can find the answer to both questions in Johnston Cheney's discussion of this verse:
Seven sabbaths were to be counted from the Feast of First-fruits or Passover. Consequently, these came to be known as "First Sabbath," "Second Sabbath" etc., down to the seventh. And according to Julian Morgenstern, former President of Hebrew University, this practice continued in Galilee till the time of Christ or the Common Era. It is still observed by some groups in Palestine today. Thus, there was an annual date known as "First Sabbath," just after Passover. (p. 230, The Life of Christ in Stereo)
According to Leviticus 23:15, there were seven weekly Sabbaths between Passover and Pentecost that were to be counted. When referring to any of these seven Sabbaths, the Jews would simply call them "one of the Sabbaths." There was an annual date just after Passover at the time of Yeshua known as the "First Sabbath"; this was the first weekly Sabbath after the Passover high Sabbath. "One of the Sabbaths," mentioned by all of the Gospel writers (Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1; John 20:1, 19), refers to this very "First Sabbath"! When English translators render the Greek text as "first day of the week," they do so because of tradition. The most logical translation would be the most literal: "One of the Sabbaths."


Shlama w???burkate

Claud.
#13
Quote:Stephen,
First of all let me apologise if I have in anyway upset you,


Quote:how do I know?, let me explain, b''khad b'shaba" or d'Had,b'$ab'a` or even D'KHaD,B'SHaB'aA in aramaic is represented as ???????????????????????? which means one into
sabbath which is an idiomatic expression for Sunday. However, notice what is actually written in Aramaic ???????????? ????????????????

Shlama Akhi Claud:
There is no need to apologise. No offense was taken, whatsoever. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> It's an interesting point you make, however, I prefer the simple text and explanation of a Sunday resurrection. Unless there is "evidence" then the p'shat of the text will suffice for me.
Whether one says ???????????????????????? or splits it into two words ???????????? ???????????????? it's the same idiomatic expression, "first of the week". I have observed this often between the Khabouris Codex and the Crawford Codex where a word is split into two words. The splitting of the word into two doesn't change the meaning. It's purely dialectic.
In this particular case, the Khabouris Codex reads ???????????? ???????????????? while the Crawford Codex reads ??????????????

Shlama,
Stephen Silver
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#14
Shlama Akhi Stephen,

Saying The Feast of Weeks or "counting of the omer" is just that, "weeks", does not prove your point! It's abit like me saying a week is a long time in politics to prove the duration of a week...... yes thats right its meaningless!

Lets look at it another way, what evidence do you have that "week" means Sabbath?

You stated earlier that b'khad b'shaba literally means in the first in seven. I then pointed out that the aramaic word for seven is not in the text, and that there is no equivalent word for week in aramaic. Additionally the cardinal "one" has been rendered as the ordinal "first." If you are going to start ignoring inflections you are really on shacky ground!

In the greek if it was correct to render sabbath as week, then you simply use the greek transliterated word for week "hebdoma", the fact that it has not been done must surely tell you something!

There is nothing simple about a Sunday resurrection, not least 2 days and 2 nights do not equal 3 days 3 nights as demanded by Mathew 12:40 and was the only sign Yeshua would give.

Shlama w???burkate

Claud.
#15
Quote:I am not going to try and convince I shall merely present the facts as they stand. b''khad b'shaba" or "on the first of the week" as you call it is not present in the text, how do I know?, let me explain, b''khad b'shaba" or d'Had,b'$ab'a` or even D'KHaD,B'SHaB'aA in aramaic is represented as ???????????????????????? which means one into
sabbath which is an idiomatic expression for Sunday. However, notice what is actually written in Aramaic ???????????? ????????????????
in the text.

Quote:You stated earlier that b'khad b'shaba literally means in the first in seven. I then pointed out that the aramaic word for seven is not in the text, and that there is no equivalent word for week in aramaic. Additionally the cardinal "one" has been rendered as the ordinal "first." If you are going to start ignoring inflections you are really on shacky (sic.) ground!

Shlama Akhi Claud:
If you don't mind, let's focus on one key point at a time. Your above statements show that you understand that ???????????????????????? is an idiomatic expression for "one into sabbath" or "Sunday". Isn't "first of the week" actually Sunday? I have sourced both the Khabouris Codex and the Crawford Codex manuscripts. There is no intrinsic difference in the meaning whether it is one word or two.

Luke 24:1 "on the first of the week"
Khabouris Codex reads ???????????? ????????????????
Crawford Codex reads ??????????????

Shlama,
Stephen
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