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Gawrah again and again
#1
Sh'lama-Shalom

i posted this in another thread, but it received no reply. i am hoping to get one here <!-- s:lookround: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/lookround.gif" alt=":lookround:" title="Look Round" /><!-- s:lookround: -->

i have looked around the forums and haven't noticed an answer for the following question, though skimming thru, i may very well have missed it <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

the concept of Gaw'rah meaning "father"... is this a recent idea of its interpretation (like the last 100 years) or is there some COE history behind its meaning "Father"? (i originally put "Husband" but meant "Father" ~ typo). and if so, how long? i have been looking around in various places for some history to this meaning, but everything i have found so far seems recent.

any help in this would be greatly appreciated <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

Many Blessings,
John
Therefore, every Sopher who is discipled into the Mal'khuth ha Shamayim is like the master of a house, who brings forth from his treasures things new and old. ~Mattith'yahu 13:52
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#2
Shalom Yochanan,

You may know this already, but I wanted to give a bit more of a background on the word imagery here.

In Aramaic (and, Hebrew) there are regular words for "man" ("Ish", "Anash" in Hebrew and Aramaic) and "woman" ("Ishah", "Nisha" in Hebrew and Aramaic).

In Aramaic (and, Hebrew) there are two words that are slang to denote "male" and "female" - those slang words are Gever (Aramaic Gawra) and Neqva (Aramaic Neqwa).

See the slang terms in action in Jeremiah 31:22:

Quote:???How long will you go here and there, O faithless daughter? For the Lord has created a new thing in the earth - A female [ neqva ] will encompass a male [ gever ].???

Why are the terms used above not Ish and Ishah ? The normal words in Hebrew for "man" and "woman"? For instance, see Genesis:

Quote:"This one at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. This one shall be called Woman (Ishah) for from Man (Ish) she was taken".

Why do I say these terms used in Jeremiah are slang, Akhi?

Well, to start off ... the root of Neqva~Neqwa (n-q-w) in both languages literally is a verb which means "to make a hole/to pierce." Pretty weird, huh? The term of course emphasizes the physiology of the female.

Likewise, the term Gever~Gowra in both languages is also used to refer to a "rooster" - guess why? Again, it's a slang word. "Gever" also happens to be a word that in Rabbinic Hebrew is used to refer to the male physiology.

Before I go on.....So why are these two slang terms used in the verse of Jeremiah above?
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
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#3
Paul Younan Wrote:Shalom Yochanan,

You may know this already, but I wanted to give a bit more of a background on the word imagery here.

In Aramaic (and, Hebrew) there are regular words for "man" ("Ish", "Anash" in Hebrew and Aramaic) and "woman" ("Ishah", "Nisha" in Hebrew and Aramaic).

In Aramaic (and, Hebrew) there are two words that are slang to denote "male" and "female" - those slang words are Gever (Aramaic Gawra) and Neqva (Aramaic Neqwa).

See the slang terms in action in Jeremiah 31:22:

Quote:???How long will you go here and there, O faithless daughter? For the Lord has created a new thing in the earth - A female [ neqva ] will encompass a male [ gever ].???

Why are the terms used above not Ish and Ishah ? The normal words in Hebrew for "man" and "woman"? For instance, see Genesis:

Quote:"This one at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. This one shall be called Woman (Ishah) for from Man (Ish) she was taken".

Why do I say these terms used in Jeremiah are slang, Akhi?

Well, to start off ... the root of Neqva~Neqwa (n-q-w) in both languages literally is a verb which means "to make a hole/to pierce." Pretty weird, huh? The term of course emphasizes the physiology of the female.

Likewise, the term Gever~Gowra in both languages is also used to refer to a "rooster" - guess why? Again, it's a slang word. "Gever" also happens to be a word that in Rabbinic Hebrew is used to refer to the male physiology.

Before I go on.....So why are these two slang terms used in the verse of Jeremiah above?

Shlama Akhi Paul:
It would appear that you are alluding, as the Scriptures do, to the slang meaning that the Aramaic "gawra" follows the slang Hebrew "gever" meaning "one who has the proven ability to bear children". Thus, the use of the word "gowra" in Matthew 1:16 is used because the "remez" is that Yosef being the "gowra" of Miryam is her father.

Shlama,
Stephen
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#4
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.peshitta.org/bethgazza/Gabra.htm">http://www.peshitta.org/bethgazza/Gabra.htm</a><!-- m -->
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#5
Paul Younan Wrote:Shalom Yochanan,
Shalom Paul,

please do not consider the following as rude, i was trying to ask a simple yes/no question concerning the scholarship behind Gaw'rah meaning "father", specifically for Mattai 1:16, as to whether or not this is a modern concept (or discovery), or if there is COE teaching much older than the last 100 years. and should the answer have been yes, i would have asked for some references.

i am all for Gaw'rah meaning "father", it makes better sense to me. you see i have a Beyth Mid'rash to present these things to, and for them, it is shaky ground to present something as authortative if there is no certain tradition to confirm or deny it ~ specifically, in the matter of Gaw'ah meaning "father" for Mattai 1:16, from the COE.

now, for what you have presented...

Paul Younan Wrote:******************************************
See the slang terms in action in Jeremiah 31:22:

Quote:???How long will you go here and there, O faithless daughter? For the Lord has created a new thing in the earth - A female [ neqva ] will encompass a male [ gever ].???

Why are the terms used above not Ish and Ishah ? The normal words in Hebrew for "man" and "woman"? For instance, see Genesis:

Quote:"This one at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. This one shall be called Woman (Ishah) for from Man (Ish) she was taken".

Why do I say these terms used in Jeremiah are slang, Akhi?

Well, to start off ... the root of Neqva~Neqwa (n-q-w) in both languages literally is a verb which means "to make a hole/to pierce." Pretty weird, huh? The term of course emphasizes the physiology of the female.

Likewise, the term Gever~Gowra in both languages is also used to refer to a "rooster" - guess why? Again, it's a slang word. "Gever" also happens to be a word that in Rabbinic Hebrew is used to refer to the male physiology.

Before I go on.....So why are these two slang terms used in the verse of Jeremiah above?

i am not sure why you are asking me this (sorry, density of mind without caffeine lol). i can offer to you an explanation of the verse and what it means to us Hebrews.

oy, this is going to feel odd... Ish and Ishah pertain to a man and woman already united together in marriage. as you have pointed out concerning the slang of Gaver and N'kevah, these pertain to those still in a courting stage, having yet to pierce and be pierced, in other words, being united as one flesh <!-- sBlush --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/blush.gif" alt="Blush" title="Blush" /><!-- sBlush --> Adam, saying "this is flesh of my flesh...etc" has pointed out that they are already united as one flesh since it is that she was taken from Ish. she was called Ishah because she causes the Ish to go "AAAHHHH!" ~ sorry, bad humor <!-- s:lookround: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/lookround.gif" alt=":lookround:" title="Look Round" /><!-- s:lookround: -->

[font=Levistam (V1.1)]rbg bbwst hbqn cr0b h4dx hwhy 0rb yk[/font] (there doesn't seem to be a Tzadei Sophit for the Levistam, but iz okay <!-- sBig Grin --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/happy.gif" alt="Big Grin" title="Happy" /><!-- sBig Grin --> )

it has been taught that, figuratively, this refers to a new disposition taken in the courting of potential spouses, for the root Savav [font=Levistam (V1.1)]bbs[/font] for T'sovev [font=Levistam (V1.1)]bbwst[/font] pertains to surrounding, bordering, encompassing, but in the sense of potentially taking to oneself as in besiegement, even to lead or cause to follow. so instead of the Man (Gaver) initiating things, the Woman (N'kevah) is the one to do so. from an interpretive point of view, this refers to God being pursued by the people in the New Covenant which the context of the chapter refers to.

according to your references, Gaver (Man) pertains to a husband? i'm not sure i understand what it is your getting to, but i am looking forward to a further post on this <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

something interesting playing with the letters for Ish v'Ishah [font=Levistam (V1.1)]h40w 4y0[/font]

When a couple are united in marriage, and the Holy One is entwined with them, like it is written, a threefold cord is not easily broken, they are called Ish v'Ishah [font=Levistam (V1.1)]h40w 4y0[/font], containing within each a portion of the Holy One [font=Levistam (V1.1)]hwhy[/font], Yod [font=Levistam (V1.1)]y[/font] with Ish, He [font=Levistam (V1.1)]h[/font] with Ishah.
But should the Ishah not follow after her God, she becomes an Esh [font=Levistam (V1.1)]40[/font], Fire, having her portion of the Holy One ([font=Levistam (V1.1)]h[/font]) removed from her, making it Ish v'Esh [font=Levistam (V1.1)]40w 4y0[/font], and so becomes a destruction to the Ish. and should the Ish follow not, he becomes Esh [font=Levistam (V1.1)]40[/font], having his portion of the Holy One ([font=Levistam (V1.1)]y[/font]) removed from him, making it Esh v'Ishah [font=Levistam (V1.1)]h40w 40[/font], and so becomes a destruction to the Ishah.

John
Therefore, every Sopher who is discipled into the Mal'khuth ha Shamayim is like the master of a house, who brings forth from his treasures things new and old. ~Mattith'yahu 13:52
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#6
Yochanan5730 Wrote:
Paul Younan Wrote:Shalom Yochanan,
Shalom Paul,

please do not consider the following as rude, i was trying to ask a simple yes/no question concerning the scholarship behind Gaw'rah meaning "father", specifically for Mattai 1:16, as to whether or not this is a modern concept (or discovery), or if there is COE teaching much older than the last 100 years. and should the answer have been yes, i would have asked for some references.

i am all for Gaw'rah meaning "father", it makes better sense to me. you see i have a Beyth Mid'rash to present these things to, and for them, it is shaky ground to present something as authortative if there is no certain tradition to confirm or deny it ~ specifically, in the matter of Gaw'ah meaning "father" for Mattai 1:16, from the COE.

John try reading this article. It may help.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.peshitta.org/bethgazza/Gabra.htm">http://www.peshitta.org/bethgazza/Gabra.htm</a><!-- m -->
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#7
Quote:[font=Levistam (V1.1)]rbg bbwst hbqn ;r0b h4dx hwhy 0rb yk[/font] (there doesn't seem to be a Tzadei Sophit for the Levistam, but iz okay <!-- sBig Grin --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/happy.gif" alt="Big Grin" title="Happy" /><!-- sBig Grin --> )

Shlama Akhi Yochanan:
The Tzadi Sofit is the semi-colon, ";" I've listed the corresponding keybourd letters to all four (V1.1) fonts. See the Technical Forum - Font Dropdown Table Problem - Version 1.1 Fonts.

Shlama,
Stephen
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#8
Shalom Akhi Yochanan,

Yochanan5730 Wrote:i'm not sure i understand what it is your getting to, but i am looking forward to a further post on this <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

Here's the point of posting the Jeremiah quote, Akh - (didn't mean to make you blush!) :

Gowra(Aramaic)~Gever(Hebrew)~Jabbar(Arabic) is a word that defines, quintessentially, the very essential state, in its purest form, of masculinity. It is not a word that is used merely for a husband, nor merely for a father. It could be a brother. An uncle. A grandfather. Even a cousin. A warrior. Yep, a rooster, too. And last but not least, even a prominent part of the male physiology (check out some rabbinic writings if you want to blush.)

See the pattern ?

So, I used the Jeremiah quote because I wanted to make sure you understand that: that G-B-R (in all 3 Semitic tongues) = Slang for "The Quintessence of Masculinity."

Okay?

Akhi, when a girl is still a maiden....anyone in her family could be a "gawra" to her. Her older brother, if her father has passed away. When she is married, her husband is referred, again in slang, as her "gawra~gever~jabbar." She is still, in slang, a "Niqwa" - her marital state is not even a factor. Remember that we are dealing with a very ancient, middle-eastern, Patriarchal society.

The practice of genealogy in this type of society typically did not mention the females. It is remarkable that Mary is mentioned at all - yet, it's to be expected since Joseph (her husband) had no part to play in the conception and Matthew wanted to establish the lineage by flesh....important of course as that was to the Jewish audience he was addressing.

Since "Gever" can mean so many different things - how can we be sure of what it means in the genealogy of Matthew?

Well, given that it is a genealogy - the perfect contextual meaning is that of one generation from before Miriam, right? We can easily rule out warrior, or rooster.....or, you-know-what.

Additionally, just a little distance further in Matthew.....Joseph, her husband Joseph, is called her "baal" - I'm sure you recognize that name. That is used more specifically to mean "husband."

So, as I state in my article - the fact that Matthew uses two different words, in two different contexts, to refer to "Joseph" - suggests that it was two different "Josephs" that he was referring to. Reasonable? I think so.

I realize you are looking for a quote from before 100 years ago, that shows a definitive usage of Gawra to mean specifically "father" - when and if I do find run across an example, I will post it. All I have to give to you now is the testimony of a community that still asks for the "gawra" of the household (gawra de betha) when they knock on the door to request a girl's hand in marriage.

Assyrians on this forum like Karl, Lars & Sonia Lindgren, and others can tell you more.

Take care!
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
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#9
Quote:I realize you are looking for a quote from before 100 years ago, that shows a definitive usage of Gawra to mean specifically "father" - when and if I do find run across an example, I will post it. All I have to give to you now is the testimony of a community that still asks for the "gawra" of the household (gawra de betha) when they knock on the door to request a girl's hand in marriage.

Assyrians on this forum like Karl, Lars & Sonia Lindgren, and others can tell you more.

Hello Yochanan,

As an Assyrian, I can vouch for shamasha Paul's example quoted above about the use of the word "gawra" in Aramaic meaning more than just a husband. In fact the example reminded me about the time when my female cousin got married several years ago. Her father had passed away a few years prior to her betrothal. When the time came for the boy's family to request for her hand in marriage knowing the fact that her father had passed away and that she had a mature brother (at that time 22 years old) they asked "mani leh gawra"? (who is the gawra) when there was a question as to whom they should address in their marriage proposal. The question they asked was in neo-Aramaic. Despite the fact that she had a 22 year old brother and a paternal uncle who were present at the gathering, it was agreed upon that another male relative of the girl who was the eldest of all her male relatives would speak on behalf of her deceased father and make a decision whether or not to accept the marriage proposal.
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#10
Sh'lama-Shalom everyone <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
thank you for your replies, everything has been very helpful.

Many Blessings,
John
Therefore, every Sopher who is discipled into the Mal'khuth ha Shamayim is like the master of a house, who brings forth from his treasures things new and old. ~Mattith'yahu 13:52
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