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The Sign of Jonah
#16
shlomo Thirdwoe,

Just to correct what you mentioned!

List of the days of the week according to Aramaic:
Had bshabo (Sunday) => ???????? ???????????????? <= Literal translation "1st in the Week"
tren bshabo (Monday) => ?????????????? ???????????????? <= Literal translation "2nd in the Week"
tlotho vshabo (Tuesday) => ???????????????? ?????????????? <= Literal translation "3rd in the Week"
arb'o vshabo (Wednesday) => ???????????????? ???????????????? <= Literal translation "4th in the Week"
Hamsho vshabo (Thursday) => ???????????? ???????????????? <= Literal translation "5th in the Week"
'ruvto (Friday) => ???????????????????? <= Literal translation "Day of Preparation <-> Eve of the Sabbath"
shabtho (Saturday) => ???????????????? <= Literal translation "Sabbath"

'ruvto => can also mean "eve of" written as => ( 'ruvt ) or ( 'ruvto d )

Notice here that the word 'ruvto is so widely used for Friday that they didn't even bother to add to it " in the week"; the same goes for "shabtho".

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun
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#17
...

Ok, thanks.

Can we say then that 'ruvto could never mean "the preperation day" of the start of Passover if the 14th of Nissan is not on a Friday evening to Saturday evening...?

Is there not a Sabbath, day of rest there as well, even if it is not the seventh day of the week? And if so, could the day before it ever be called 'ruvto?

...
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#18
Dear Thirdwoe,

I don't actually have a firm opinion on this issue, nor does it affect my faith.

I only wanted to present some information that might be useful for this discussion.

Blessings...

Otto
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#19
...

Understood Otto and thanks for your input. I am with you on that, it just seems to me that there should be a 3rd night somewhere to fulfill the Sign and if the darkness that covered the land is the answer then so be it. It just seems to be a real far stretch to me, but certainly even if Y'shua was not dead during this darkness he was in a certain hell while hanging on that tree paying for our transgressions...I just want to stand on truth with this and not take a wrong position if there is a more correct answer from the Scriptures.

Blessings.

...
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#20
shlomo Thirdwoe,

Thirdwoe Wrote:Can we say then that 'ruvto could never mean "the preperation day" of the start of Passover if the 14th of Nissan is not on a Friday evening to Saturday evening...?

Here's a complete definition from CAL which covers the many dialects of Aramaic (most of the references are Jewish) on how 'ruvto is used:

??????????, det. ???????????? n.f. eve, Friday (---> ??????????????; Mng. 1: CPA \f7(rwbt) d$wbt)\f1
HS 8:104, Mal (ro:ba Berg, Gl 6; mng. 2: SA
???????????? Asatir 1:16, Sy \f7(rwbt)\f1 LS 546) 1. eve: sg.
?????? ?????? ?????????? eve of the New Year Tan 66a(42) // Meg 70d(9) // Ned 40d(56);
?????? ???????? ???????????? on the eve of the Day of Atonement Ter
45c(62) // AZ 41a(52); BRV 60 91:7; RuR 88:97; ?????????? ??????????????
the eve of Pesach ib. 96; ???????????? ?????????? the eve of
the Sabbatical year Svi 39a(35); ???????? ?????????? eve of the
Sabbath (i.e. Friday; ---> mng. 2) MS 56a(10); ib. 12; Sab
3a(27) // Qid 61a(47); Tan 66a(42); ib. 69a(38); Meg 70d(9) //
Ned 40d(56)[!]; AZ 44d(41); 2. esp. Friday: sg. ?????????? ?????? BRV 60
91:7; ?????????? ?????? EchRB 106:1; ???????????? BRV 60 95:8; MMDam Gen
36:21; AZ 40d(28); EchRB 126:2; ?????????????? ?????? ???????? the Day
of Atonement (falls) on Friday Meg 70b(25); ?????????????? ???????? Pes
30d(2) // Tan 64c(24); ???????? ?????????? ???? ?????????????? sunset on
Friday Ter 46b(64); ?????????????? ?????????? ???????????? BR 689:2; ???????? ???????? ??????????????
towards evening on Friday MS 54d(43); Sab 14d(26); BR 688:8


By copying and pasting to the forum, all of the Hebrew letters appear in reverse order, so here's the link to the exact page:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://cal1.cn.huc.edu/cgi-bin/jpaoff.cgi?off=1884038">http://cal1.cn.huc.edu/cgi-bin/jpaoff.cgi?off=1884038</a><!-- m -->

Thirdwoe Wrote:Is there not a Sabbath, day of rest there as well, even if it is not the seventh day of the week? And if so, could the day before it ever be called 'ruvto?

'ruvto by itself can only be Friday, but as mentioned earlier if it is written in the construct state such as < 'ruvt > or < 'ruvto d >, meaning "eve of" then you can write "eve of ..."

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun
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#21
shlomo Thirdwoe,

I've found an example of the darkness/Post Darkness being consider a day (i.e being considered a night and a day) in writings of mar Aphrahat (Demon. 12.)

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun
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#22
shlomo,

In light of our discussion, it would be good to look at the Aramaic text of the Book of Jonah:

yawnon 2:1 =>
Peshitta OT (POT) => ???????? ???????? ???????? ?????? ?????????? ???????????? ???????? ???????? ?????????????? ???????????? ???????? ?????????????? ?????????? ????????????
Targum (TRG) => ?????????? ?????? ???????? ?????? ?????????? ???? ???????? ???????? ???????? ?????????? ?????????? ???????? ???????????? ?????????? ??????????????

Matay (MTY) 12:40 => ?????????? ?????? ???????? ???????? ?????????? ?????????? ???????? ?????????? ?????????? ?????????? ???????? ???????? ?????? ?????????? ???????? ?????????? ???????? ???????????? ?????????? ??????????

Three days and three nights:
MTY (about yawnon) => ???????? ?????????? ?????????? ??????????

Three days (daytime) and Three nights:
TRG => ???????? ?????????? ?????????? ????????????
POT => ???????? ???????????? ?????????? ??????????
MTY (about yeshu???) => ???????? ???????????? ?????????? ??????????

Here we see that in the Aramaic of the POT and of the TRG, the word that is used specifies daytime-days.
When yeshu??? (MTY) spoke of Himself, He used the identical spelling to that of the POT and TRG (slight dialect spelling differences).

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun
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#23
...

Can you expound what that says to you in light of the discussion? I would like to hear your thoughts.

Also, looking at Mr. Bauscher's version, he has this reading in English at Luke 24:1 "But on Sunday morning, while it was dark..."

My question here is...is 'Sunday' a straight translation here from the Aramaic, or Mr. Bauscher???s interpretation of the Aramaic meaning...? And at Matthew 27:62 he has this reading..."and the next day, which is after Friday sunset,..." Q: is this the true litteral translation here or is Mr. Bauscher interpreting rather than translating the Aramaic?

Also, something strange I noticed in his translation of Mark 16: 1-8 where there is a narrative...and then at verse 9 it seems that there is a weird change in the narrative that seems out of flow...is this the way it is in the Aramaic?

...
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#24
shlomo Thirdwoe,

> Can you expound what that says to you in light of the discussion? I would like to hear your thoughts.

By ???in light???, I meant that when analysing something you should also analyse what it is referring to.

This shows that ???three days???, for yeshu???, meant ???three daytime days??? (i.e. as previously mentioned in both yawnon and yeshu??? case they both specified daytime-day.) This ties in with the previous posts in relation to the use of the Aramaic word daytime-day.

Also the story in the Book of Jonah starts out in the daytime (giving the context and the use of the word daytime-day), which give us a similar situation to that in the Gospel of matay.

What is also significant is that in the Hebrew of Jonah they use the generic word for day; and since the Tragums are meant to be a paraphrase of the Hebrew and since the generic word for day is available in Aramaic, then it is significant that they chose to use daytime-day instead of just day.


When we look at Greek it uses the same word ((???????????) which can be either day or daytime-day) in both places (i.e. when yeshu??? speaks of yawnon and when He speaks of Himself).
In the Greek???s understanding of a day; part of a day is also considered an entire day (which is inline with the Aramaic understanding of a day). So three days and three nights in Greek means ???at least one whole day plus part of two other days???.
Since I don???t know Greek I found the definition at the following link (def. 2):
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2250&t=KJV#">http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... 250&t=KJV#</a><!-- m -->


> Also, looking at Mr. Bauscher's version, he has this reading in English at Luke 24:1 "But on Sunday morning, while it was dark..."
My question here is...is 'Sunday' a straight translation here from the Aramaic, or Mr. Bauscher???s interpretation of the Aramaic meaning...?


It starts with ???bHad bshabo??? (literal translation => ???On the first in the week???), and ???Had bshabo??? can only mean Sunday. In Aramaic ???first in the week??? is the first day of the week for us, and our first day starts on ???Sunday??? which is the equivalent of ???Saturday at sunset??? in western time.

> And at Matthew 27:62 he has this reading..."and the next day, which is after Friday sunset,..." Q: is this the true litteral translation here or is Mr. Bauscher interpreting rather than translating the Aramaic?

I???m not going to comment on Mr. Bauscher???s translation.

Here???s a literal translation of matay 27:62:
???Then on the next day which is after Friday??????

> Also, something strange I noticed in his translation of Mark 16: 1-8 where there is a narrative...and then at verse 9 it seems that there is a weird change in the narrative that seems out of flow...is this the way it is in the Aramaic?


Again I won???t comment on his translation.

All I can say is that one narrative ended in marqos 16:8 and then a new one started in marqos 16:9 with maryam maghdloyto having been the first to see Him resurrected on Sunday (the first in the week) morning, and then brining them the news.

push bashlomo,
Keefa-morun
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#25
...

Yes it is clear that the resurrection took place sometime after the Sabbath had ended and the 1st of the week was dawning,.... the Scriptures are clear about this.

But the 1st of the week literally began at sunset Saturday, not like our Roman set up which is at midnight.

The Sabbath did not end or close at midnight, but at sundown Saturday evening.

So, based upon this statement, it seems to me that this verse declares that the women went to the catacomb to apply the burial spices at that time rather than near sunup on Sunday....this would be the soonest that they could do this because of the Sabbath restriction and it would seem to me that they would want to get this done as soon a possible.

Paul Younan has this translation for Matthew 28:1 and I am wondering if the word for "Twilight" he uses here for the Aramaic word can mean after sunset just as well as before sunset in the Aramaic Language just as it does in the English.

Younan: Matthew 28:1 ???Now in the evening of the Sabbath as it was twilight the first of the week came Maryam of Magdala and the other Maryam that they might see the grave." (I have left the translation un-punctuated, as his interlinear does not show any)

This verse seems to me to say that the Women started off as soon as the Sabbath had ended at sunset and as the 1st of the week was just beginning to dawn...this would for them mean just after sundown Saturday night, since that was the end and evening of the Sabbath and the start of the 1st day of the week.

For the English word Twilight...

Dictionary results for: twilight
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)

-Noun
1. The soft, diffused light from the sky when the sun is below the horizon, either from daybreak to sunrise or, more commonly, from sunset to nightfall.
2. The period in the morning or, more commonly, in the evening during which this light prevails.
3. A terminal period, esp. after full development, success, etc.: the twilight of his life.
4. A state of uncertainty, vagueness, or gloom.

???Adjective
5. Of, pertaining to, or resembling twilight; dim; obscure: in the twilight hours.
6. Appearing or flying at twilight; crepuscular.

...
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#26
shlomo Thirdwoe,

Yes it is clear that the resurrection took place sometime after the Sabbath had ended and the 1st of the week was dawning,.... the Scriptures are clear about this.

But the 1st of the week literally began at sunset Saturday, not like our Roman set up which is at midnight.

The Sabbath did not end or close at midnight, but at sundown Saturday evening.


Exactly as I???ve previously mentioned

So, based upon this statement, it seems to me that this verse declares that the women went to the catacomb to apply the burial spices at that time rather than near sunup on Sunday....this would be the soonest that they could do this because of the Sabbath restriction and it would seem to me that they would want to get this done as soon a possible.

I???ve gone over this previously in relation to the meaning of the Aramaic.

Requote (When they started) =>
???Here it says, that in the evening (i.e. Sunday - equivalent to the western Saturday evening) they came to see the catacomb (after the Sabbath). Here the word came (??????) just tells us that they came to the catacomb; but not length of the period before the angel appeared to them nor even how long it took them to reach the catacomb.
The abruptness between matay 28:1 and matay 28:2 in the Aramaic would seem to indicate that the author skipped right to the next important event (i.e. the angel appearing.)
In essence the gospel of matay gave us a short summary of the events that occurred.???

Requote (When they reached) =>
???Now marqos 16:2, and luqo 24:1 fill in the blanks and give us what happened at daybreak (i.e. the events with the angels) with additional details???

Let us analyse the verse in marqos:
marqos 16:2 => ?????????? ?????? ?????? ???????? ?????? ???????? ?????????? ???? ?????? ????????
At daybreak on Sunday (i.e. Sunday morning) => ?????????? ?????? ?????? ????????
They came to the catacomb => ?????? ???????? ??????????
While the sun was rising => ???? ?????? ????????

As explained previously about the difference between the account in matay and marqos:
Requote =>
???In essence the gospel of matay gave us a short summary of the events that occurred.

Now marqos 16:2, and luqo 24:1 fill in the blanks and give us what happened at daybreak (i.e. the events with the angels) with additional details

And yuhanon 20:1 on the other hand gives an even shorter summary of the events than matay, but clearly states that they made it to the catacomb in the morning hours of Sunday.
???

Paul Younan has this translation for Matthew 28:1 and I am wondering if the word for "Twilight" he uses here for the Aramaic word can mean after sunset just as well as before sunset in the Aramaic Language just as it does in the English.

Here, as it is written, can only mean at sunset when Sunday starts (aka dawned) => ( ?????????? ???????? ???? ????????)

Younan: Matthew 28:1 ???Now in the evening of the Sabbath as it was twilight the first of the week came Maryam of Magdala and the other Maryam that they might see the grave." (I have left the translation un-punctuated, as his interlinear does not show any)

This verse seems to me to say that the Women started off as soon as the Sabbath had ended at sunset and as the 1st of the week was just beginning to dawn...this would for them mean just after sundown Saturday night, since that was the end and evening of the Sabbath and the start of the 1st day of the week.

Please look above for when the women started.

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun
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#27
...

I know it takes my wife forever to go to the store and fix something up, but it looks like these women took about 12 hours to leave the house at sundown and arrive at the Catacomb at sunrise.

Did you say conclusively that "The Preparation day" could only mean Friday and never mean another day, even if that day is a start day and end day of a Feast when there is to be a day of rest.... I want to be certain that this cannot be possible.

...
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#28
shlomo Thirdwoe,

Thirdwoe Wrote:I know it takes my wife forever to go to the store and fix something up, but it looks like these women took about 12 hours to leave the house at sundown and arrive at the Catacomb at sunrise.

All we know is that they went to buy spices after the Sabbath ended, but nothing in the Aramaic tells us how long it took them to reach the merchant who sold them the spices, and then after that we have no information about what they did until daybreak (i.e. maybe on their way there they slept over at a friend's home or family member's home), we also know that back then they didn't have any cars, so they would have had to walk a great distance.

Thirdwoe Wrote:Did you say conclusively that "The Preparation day" could only mean Friday and never mean another day, even if that day is a start day and end day of a Feast when there is to be a day of rest.... I want to be certain that this cannot be possible.

Please see my previous posts, as I answered this questions many times (i.e. in it is use as Friday and as "eve of ...") and I also gave the Aramaic meaning for each one of the verses in question in relation to the word 'ruvto in the Gosepl accounts.

P.S. Here's something you might want to try => Try finding a reference to "Day of preparation" in the Bible which is outside of the Gospels (i.e. in both the NT and OT.)

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun
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#29
...

Keffa, I want to thank you for all your help here in looking at what the Aramaic has to show. After all this is considered and after just reading the Diatessaron, it seems to me that it must be a Friday to Sunday event. And since this looks to be the case, I believe that the darkness that came over the land, must be the missing night...it would seem to be the only option we have in the Scriptures.

...
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#30
Thirdwoe Wrote:...it would seem to be the only option we have in the Scriptures.

Shlama Akhi,

Another option would be to not take the "3 days and nights" so literally. Aramaic, much more so than English, is a very idiomatic tongue. You would understand in English if I used the phrase "Sorry I haven't gotten back to you, I've been working day and night" that I didn't mean to have the statement taken so literally as to have you understand it to mean "24 hours."

In Aramaic the phrase "layla w'yoma" (night and day) is used all the time by women complaining about their husbands and their activities. My mother in particular used the phrase often when referring to the obsession my father and his brothers had with playing backgammon.

Idiomatic usages like this are found much more frequently in Semitic tongues than perhaps our Indo-European brethren may be accustomed to.

What I'm trying to say is that Jonah was probably not in the belly of any fish at all, and certainly there was no need for him to have been in there for 3 days and literal nights, either.....if the account of the fish and the ship are to be understood literally and not as a story meant to convey a message.

There are different ways to read scripture and I think reading it at times a bit less literally allows for a much deeper allegorical meaning than would otherwise be conveyed if restricted to a literal rendition.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that this isn't a case where Aramaic or Greek is going to shed any light. In Greek, Aramaic, English and Swahili from Friday to Sunday is 3 days. If you want to understand the 3 days so literally because Meshikha said "days and nights", then really the problem is outside the scope of linguistics and more of a case where you want to familiarize yourself more with the idiomatic usages of these phrases in literature that is contemporary to the NT or OT, up to and including modern times.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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