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Question about tribal name in Gilyana
#1
Shalom to all,


this is only my first post, but i have been lurking in the shadows of the unregistered off and on for a while now, so i feel like i know some of you! <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->


anyhow, my question is one i recently posted on another Peshitta forum that apparently isn't getting much traffic, so i thought i'd break new ground and try providence here.

I have a question about the pronunciation of the name "Reuven" in the list of the 144,000 in the book of Gilyana (Revelation) 7:5.

the Aramaic reads his name as being "Ruvel."

the presence of the lomadh stood out obviously as opposed to the normal ending of a nun during my reading of the text. being the only time his name appears in the New Covenant, I didn't have anything on-hand to compare it with.

my question is whether this is a scribal error or merely standard pronunciation of Reuven's name in Aramaic? i know we see variations of spelling/pronunciation in the Hebrew TaNaK from time to time, ie, Nemu'El/Yemu'El, Yoseph/Yehoseph, Yitzhaq/Yitzshaq, and so on, so i was wondering what the issue is on this one from the Peshitta...

any help would be much appreciated!


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
Reply
#2
Burning one Wrote:Shalom to all,


this is only my first post, but i have been lurking in the shadows of the unregistered off and on for a while now, so i feel like i know some of you! <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->


anyhow, my question is one i recently posted on another Peshitta forum that apparently isn't getting much traffic, so i thought i'd break new ground and try providence here.

I have a question about the pronunciation of the name "Reuven" in the list of the 144,000 in the book of Gilyana (Revelation) 7:5.

the Aramaic reads his name as being "Ruvel."

the presence of the lomadh stood out obviously as opposed to the normal ending of a nun during my reading of the text. being the only time his name appears in the New Covenant, I didn't have anything on-hand to compare it with.

my question is whether this is a scribal error or merely standard pronunciation of Reuven's name in Aramaic? i know we see variations of spelling/pronunciation in the Hebrew TaNaK from time to time, ie, Nemu'El/Yemu'El, Yoseph/Yehoseph, Yitzhaq/Yitzshaq, and so on, so i was wondering what the issue is on this one from the Peshitta...

any help would be much appreciated!


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy

Shlama Akhi Jeremy:
It appears that Reubel in Revelation 7:5 is a scribal error in the Philoxinian Recension (508 A.D.) and then copied as an error over 100 years later in the Harklean Version (616 A.D.). The Aramaic was translated from the Greek and the Greek reads Reuben. Understand that the original Aramaic of the Book of Revelation has been lost and we only have the Philoxinian (Crawford Codex) and the Harklean (New Covenant Aramaic Peshitta Text) of the Aramaic from the Greek. The Greek New Testament reads Reuben.

Shlama,
Stephen
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.dukhrana.com">http://www.dukhrana.com</a><!-- m -->
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#3
Interestingly enough.....the CoE had a Patriarch not so long ago by that name:

http://www.marshimun.com/Rowil.shtml

+Shamasha
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#4
shlom lokh oH Paul,

Paul Younan Wrote:Interestingly enough.....the CoE had a Patriarch not so long ago by that name:

http://www.marshimun.com/Rowil.shtml

+Shamasha

What is more interesting is that "ruvel" is the proper rendering into Aramaic of "ruven", and that there are old forms of scripts used by Hebrew where the "nun" and the "lomdah" look virtually identical.

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun
Reply
#5
Shalom,


thank you both for responding.

for being a scribal error, i have to say someone missed it BIG TIME, as it was the name of an entire tribe they should have been familiar with, and especially since the two letters don't really look all that similar...oh well, scribal errors are part of the fallen nature package. <!-- sConfusedatisfied: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/satisfied.gif" alt="Confusedatisfied:" title="Satisfied" /><!-- sConfusedatisfied: -->

and i'd like to say to you both how much i appreciate what you are doing on your respective sites. it is a blessing beyond words!


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
Reply
#6
abudar2000 Wrote:shlom lokh oH Paul,

Paul Younan Wrote:Interestingly enough.....the CoE had a Patriarch not so long ago by that name:

http://www.marshimun.com/Rowil.shtml

+Shamasha

What is more interesting is that "ruvel" is the proper rendering into Aramaic of "ruven", and that there are old forms of scripts used by Hebrew where the "nun" and the "lomdah" look virtually identical.

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun

Shalom to you,

i was not aware of the similarity -- might you have a link to such scripts? i'm familiar with about four types, and none really appear even close...


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
Reply
#7
Shlama Jeremy,

I wanted to say 'Welcome to Peshitta.org!'.

That's a rather interesting screen name, might I ask what it means?

I hope that you enjoy your time with us here at Peshitta.org!

In my opinion, this is the koolest website on the whole net! <!-- sBig Grin --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/happy.gif" alt="Big Grin" title="Happy" /><!-- sBig Grin -->

Shlama/Shalom, Albion
Reply
#8
Paul Younan Wrote:Interestingly enough.....the CoE had a Patriarch not so long ago by that name:

http://www.marshimun.com/Rowil.shtml

+Shamasha

Shlama Akhi Paul:
Wow!! This is rather interesting. If I'm wrong I gladly stand corrected. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

Shlama,
Stephen
Reply
#9
shlom lokh oH Jeremy,

Burning one Wrote:Shalom to you,

i was not aware of the similarity -- might you have a link to such scripts? i'm familiar with about four types, and none really appear even close...


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy

Take a look at "Antiquites of Jews - Chap 3: 2" where he also finishes it with a "lomadh"
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://books.google.ca/books?id=FvsAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA44&lpg=PA44&dq=josephus+Reubel&source=web&ots=FklfuW_WJF&sig=7ojbv3xSQMTBxg7UMPidLxOSniw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result">http://books.google.ca/books?id=FvsAAAA ... &ct=result</a><!-- m -->

Try the following DSS font:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.historian.net/downloads/dssfont.ZIP">http://www.historian.net/downloads/dssfont.ZIP</a><!-- m --> <= Copy/Install this font and then in an editor insert a "lomadh" and a "nun" one after another.

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun
Reply
#10
ThesameWord Wrote:Shlama Jeremy,

I wanted to say 'Welcome to Peshitta.org!'.

That's a rather interesting screen name, might I ask what it means?

I hope that you enjoy your time with us here at Peshitta.org!

In my opinion, this is the koolest website on the whole net! <!-- sBig Grin --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/happy.gif" alt="Big Grin" title="Happy" /><!-- sBig Grin -->

Shlama/Shalom, Albion


Shlama back at you,

and thanks for the welcome!

the screen name is merely the english equivalent to the Hebrew term "seraph"/"seraphim" -- the creature(s) the prophet YeshaYahu beheld in his vision of the throneroom of Alaha. apparently, what he saw were flaming creatures somewhat akin to cherubim, but distinct. and i've been fond of that particular name for awhile now, as what an awesome, mindblowing experience it would be to be able to stand in the Presence at all times!

i've already greatly enjoyed this site for awhile now, and look forward to the fellowship and "sharpening" to come! and yes, this site is totally "kool!"


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
Reply
#11
Thank you Jeremy, for explaining!

I'm pretty much "eclectic" for lack of a better word in my Walk with Messiah......

So, a long time ago there was a miracle working Russian Orthodox Priest named "Saint" Seraphim of Sarov.

I used to chant his prayer: "Lord Jesus Christ, have Mercy on me a sinner."

A few years ago they stuck me in an MRI machine WITHOUT earplugs!! <!-- sCry --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/cry.gif" alt="Cry" title="Crying" /><!-- sCry -->

I chanted that prayer the whole time that I was in that machine! lol

I'm on a much more 'Hebraic' path now-a-days, but I still LOVE that prayer.

The Russian Orthodox Church was/is trying to "copyright" that prayer! FUNNY.

How can ANYONE copyright a PRAYER??

Shlama, Albion




Burning one Wrote:
ThesameWord Wrote:Shlama Jeremy,

I wanted to say 'Welcome to Peshitta.org!'.

That's a rather interesting screen name, might I ask what it means?

I hope that you enjoy your time with us here at Peshitta.org!

In my opinion, this is the koolest website on the whole net! <!-- sBig Grin --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/happy.gif" alt="Big Grin" title="Happy" /><!-- sBig Grin -->

Shlama/Shalom, Albion


Shlama back at you,

and thanks for the welcome!

the screen name is merely the english equivalent to the Hebrew term "seraph"/"seraphim" -- the creature(s) the prophet YeshaYahu beheld in his vision of the throneroom of Alaha. apparently, what he saw were flaming creatures somewhat akin to cherubim, but distinct. and i've been fond of that particular name for awhile now, as what an awesome, mindblowing experience it would be to be able to stand in the Presence at all times!

i've already greatly enjoyed this site for awhile now, and look forward to the fellowship and "sharpening" to come! and yes, this site is totally "kool!"


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
Reply
#12
abudar2000 Wrote:shlom lokh oH Jeremy,

Burning one Wrote:Shalom to you,

i was not aware of the similarity -- might you have a link to such scripts? i'm familiar with about four types, and none really appear even close...


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy

Take a look at "Antiquites of Jews - Chap 3: 2" where he also finishes it with a "lomadh"
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://books.google.ca/books?id=FvsAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA44&lpg=PA44&dq=josephus+Reubel&source=web&ots=FklfuW_WJF&sig=7ojbv3xSQMTBxg7UMPidLxOSniw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result">http://books.google.ca/books?id=FvsAAAA ... &ct=result</a><!-- m -->

Try the following DSS font:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.historian.net/downloads/dssfont.ZIP">http://www.historian.net/downloads/dssfont.ZIP</a><!-- m --> <= Copy/Install this font and then in an editor insert a "lomadh" and a "nun" one after another.

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun


Shlama Keefa,


thanks for the links! so Josephus was translated wrong or what is the deal?

and wow - the font you linked DOES show a very close similarity! the error makes complete sense in that respect. i had never seen that font. the Qumran font appears somewhat similar, but he lamed there is nothing like the nun. i am wondering now how often this particular error occurs... also, this just hit me -- if the Estrangelo/Serto/Swadaya scripts don't have the similarity of the two letters, and yet it is there in the Ashuri script, does that point to the Crawford manuscript actually being written originally in Ashuri and not one of the others? because if the Crawford manuscript was originally taken from the Greek, the lamda and the nu are completely opposite-looking letters, then the error doesn't make any sense at all. see what i mean?


anyhow, thanks again for your help.


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
Reply
#13
Shlama Albion,


i just "wiki-ed" the "Saint" you mentioned. can anyone say HARDCORE? talk about an intense individual! <!-- s:wow: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wow.gif" alt=":wow:" title="Wow" /><!-- s:wow: -->

i've never been of the Orthodox persuasion, although one of my fav singer/songwriters is Kemper Crabb -- an amazing lyricist and phenomenal musician!

as for copyrighting prayers: what an excellent idea! <!-- sConfusedarcasm: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/sarcasm.gif" alt="Confusedarcasm:" title="Sarcasm" /><!-- sConfusedarcasm: -->
"How dare you pray that prayer? You don't have the rights to talk to Alaha with those words!"
oy vey! <!-- s:crazy: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/crazy.gif" alt=":crazy:" title="Crazy" /><!-- s:crazy: -->

what next - copyright the shape of the host and put Ritz crackers out of business?

sheesh! it is all so simple, but we tend to make it as hard as can be!


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy

aramaic_albion Wrote:Thank you Jeremy, for explaining!

I'm pretty much "eclectic" for lack of a better word in my Walk with Messiah......

So, a long time ago there was a miracle working Russian Orthodox Priest named "Saint" Seraphim of Sarov.

I used to chant his prayer: "Lord Jesus Christ, have Mercy on me a sinner."

A few years ago they stuck me in an MRI machine WITHOUT earplugs!! <!-- sCry --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/cry.gif" alt="Cry" title="Crying" /><!-- sCry -->

I chanted that prayer the whole time that I was in that machine! lol

I'm on a much more 'Hebraic' path now-a-days, but I still LOVE that prayer.

The Russian Orthodox Church was/is trying to "copyright" that prayer! FUNNY.

How can ANYONE copyright a PRAYER??

Shlama, Albion




Burning one Wrote:
ThesameWord Wrote:Shlama Jeremy,

I wanted to say 'Welcome to Peshitta.org!'.

That's a rather interesting screen name, might I ask what it means?

I hope that you enjoy your time with us here at Peshitta.org!

In my opinion, this is the koolest website on the whole net! <!-- sBig Grin --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/happy.gif" alt="Big Grin" title="Happy" /><!-- sBig Grin -->

Shlama/Shalom, Albion


Shlama back at you,

and thanks for the welcome!

the screen name is merely the english equivalent to the Hebrew term "seraph"/"seraphim" -- the creature(s) the prophet YeshaYahu beheld in his vision of the throneroom of Alaha. apparently, what he saw were flaming creatures somewhat akin to cherubim, but distinct. and i've been fond of that particular name for awhile now, as what an awesome, mindblowing experience it would be to be able to stand in the Presence at all times!

i've already greatly enjoyed this site for awhile now, and look forward to the fellowship and "sharpening" to come! and yes, this site is totally "kool!"


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
Reply
#14
shlomo Jeremy,

The name "ruven" in Aramaic is spelled "ruvel"; it has been spelled like that for a very long time, long before the time of msheeho and the apostles.
So no they didn't mis-translate Josephus' work, as he had written his work in Aramaic.

If you take a look at the Peshitta OT, then you'll see that it is spelled this way as well, and the Peshitta OT is a Proto-Masoretic Text.

In Aramaic the name "ruvel" means "God(El) is Great".

P.S. My suggestions about the "lomadh"/"nun" was more geared to how it happened in the pre-msheeho time period.

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun
Reply
#15
abudar2000 Wrote:shlomo Jeremy,

The name "ruven" in Aramaic is spelled "ruvel"; it has been spelled like that for a very long time, long before the time of msheeho and the apostles.
So no they didn't mis-translate Josephus' work, as he had written his work in Aramaic.

If you take a look at the Peshitta OT, then you'll see that it is spelled this way as well, and the Peshitta OT is a Proto-Masoretic Text.

In Aramaic the name "ruvel" means "God(El) is Great".

P.S. My suggestions about the "lomadh"/"nun" was more geared to how it happened in the pre-msheeho time period.

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun

Okay, the Peshitta TaNaK is not something i have ever had any real dealings with. so i had no idea about how his name appears there. alright, things are coming together now. thanks for your patience on this one.

still, though, i am intrigued about the original reading of Ruvel/Reuven in Gilyana, since you've brought up the similarity of the Ashuri script of the lomadh and nun. do you have any thoughts about that? because if the Greek has Reuben, and the two letters in question don't appear similar in that language, and the Estrangelo/Serto/Swadaya scripts also don't have the similarity, then doesn't it point to an Ashuri script original for Gilyana and not a Greek?


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
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