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Of course it gets confusing, because we are looking at two different calendars that keep time from the Sun & Moon.
Anyway, like Albion says.... what matters here is the He did rise...
If He had not; none of us would be here talking about this...<!-- s:xmas: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/xmas.gif" alt=":xmas:" title="Xmas" /><!-- s:xmas: -->
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Surely it would not matter if He arose on Wednesday. But the scriptures say it was "Sunday" in the English language.
Sunday is still Sunday whether we count from 12:00 am or whether we count a couple of hours earlier at sundown.
Sunday is still the same day of the week whether we are looking at a lunar or a solar calendar, a Gregorian calendar or Julian calendar.
Ultimately, it could have been Thursday for all I care, but if the question is what the scriptures say there is no room for any other interpretation.
+Shamasha Paul
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The scriptures do not seem to be definitive. Where do "the scriptures say it was 'Sunday' ..."?
I reread the four Gospel accounts, and the only thing for sure is that the women came to the tomb on Sunday morning and Jesus had already risen. From these account the resurrection could have been before Sunday.
Otto
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Otto said: "WHERE DO THE SCRIPTURES SAY IT WAS SUNDAY?"
THEY DON'T.
Shlama, Albion
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ograabe Wrote:The scriptures do not seem to be definitive. Where do "the scriptures say it was 'Sunday' ..."?
I reread the four Gospel accounts, and the only thing for sure is that the women came to the tomb on Sunday morning and Jesus had already risen. From these account the resurrection could have been before Sunday.
Otto
Shlama Akhi Otto,
The scriptures say the women came to the tomb on Khad b'Shabba, which is the name of a day of the week that corresponds to the English "Sunday."
I'm really not going to venture down the path of the lack of specificity on the exact time between the time He arose and when they came to the tomb. At that point we are just guessing. What we know for sure is that He was arisen on Sunday.
We do not know for a fact that He was arisen on the previous Saturday....or on Friday for that matter.
But we know for a fact that on Sunday, He was arisen.
+Shamasha Paul
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In mathew 28, in my greek interlinear(jay green), it saids' at the evening of the sabbath, the sabbath is saturday, as many jews are still keeping the sabbath, as do the seven day adventists. The sabbath starts when the sun goes down.
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I found some more facts:- the sabbath does not always fall on a saturday, especially during the different feast days that the jews celebrate in the old covenant
- we know the last supper was the day before the crucifixion, mathew 26-17
- the feast of unleavened bread lasted from the 14th to the 21st, exodus 12-18
- the passover day was the 14th day of nisan, and the passover was to be killed on the evening of the 14th, exodus 12-1-6, leviticus 14-5
- the day following would be a sabbath, which agrees with the scriptures, as they broke the legs of the two men who were crucified with jesus
-the days following the 15th would be considered a sabbath, and the last day 21st would be a sabbath, leviticus 23-;6-8
-jesus died around 3 p.m , the ninth hour
- if jesus died on a wednesday, till thursday 3.00 p.m 1 day, friday 3.00 p.m 2 days, saturday 3.00 p.m 3 days
- the jews can't buy spices on a sabbath day, if jesus died on a wednesday, thursday was a sabbath, friday would have been preparation day for the sabbath on saturday. So they could have brought the spices on friday.
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Shlama Sean,
The Aramaic scriptures say the tomb was found to be empty on Sunday, Khad 'Shabba, period. Anything you or I add beyond that is pure speculation.
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Dear Stephen, thank you for your concise reply. I do, however, take exception to your judging 'I hope you are not building a case for Yeshua rising on the Sabbath'. Are you by inference saying that you have 'preconceived doctrinal beliefs?' We need to divest ourselves of these and seek answers solely from the Word of YHWH. Surely you will agree on this? Let us continue then...
Thirdwoe states: "For a 7th day resurrection, He would then have had to come out of the tomb before sun-down on Saturday evening....This would make the Scriptures in error in many places."Is there a problem with this? (And I am not saying that He did).But do the scriptures 'plainly say' that He arose on Sunday?
I have to agree with Paul on this matter when he states 'that the tomb was found to be empty (Sunday debatable)'.
My question was not around the resurrection and when but how the translators converted the Aramaic into our English. So I come back to my original question asking 'when was the twilight of the Sabbath?' From the many replies it seems that we interpret the lighting up (at the beginning) and 'twilight of the Sabbath' (at the end) differently. This is because of the wording 'of the week the first as it was twilight of the Sabbath, now in the evening. So the scriptures then go on to say that the 2 Miriams came to the tomb to find that He was risen. How can 'evening' be interpreted as 'dawning?' Remembering and observing Shabbat I have not heard the rendering 'twilight of the Sabbath, now in the evening' to refer to Saturday night. Please someone enlighten me. Also, what were the 2 Miriams doing walking to the tomb during the Sabbath? Of course, they were not, 'according to the command'.
I understand clearly the phrase 'first of the week' to mean Saturday at sundown. It was good of Sean to quote from the Tanakh in referring to the timing of the feasts. Without this we have no idea but fortunately, we know that Yeshua kept the Torah.
Anyway, back to my question please..................
Kind regards,
Mark
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August 8, 2008
Dear Paul:
Your interlinear of Mark 16:2 reads: "They came to the cemetery as the sun was rising at early morning of the first day tof the week." That doesn't seem to tell us anything about exactly how much earlier or when the resurrection occurred.
Likewise Mark 16:9 has "At early morning of the first of the week he had risen...." That seems to be relating an event that had already occurred. Hence, we apparently cannot be certain from the text exactly when the resurrection occurred. It may have been on Saturday, but the women waited until after the sabbath to visit the tomb.
Am I missing something here?
Best regards,
Otto
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Shlama Akhi Mark:
I get the impression that you are ernestly seeking clarity of the text. It's not possible to fully satisfy the desire to translate perfectly from Aramaic into English. English is my mother tongue. Aramaic is Paul Younan's mother tongue. Most times I simply defer to the Aramaic text and in this situation I defer to both the Peshitta "as is" and to Paul Younan's clarification. I honestly don't have any preconceived ideas. <!-- s:| --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/neutral.gif" alt=":|" title="Neutral" /><!-- s:| -->
Quote:I understand clearly the phrase 'first of the week' to mean Saturday at sundown.
Matthew 28:1.
But in the evening of the Shabbat, (This is at the end of the Shabbat)
when the first day of the week was dawning
Mariam Magdolita and the other Mariam
came to see the sepulchre.
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)] tt0 0b4b dx hgnd Fb4b Nyd 04mrb
0rbq Nyzxnd Frx0 Myrmw Fyldgm Myrm[/font]
Don't be thrown off by the phrase [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)] Fb4b Nyd 04mrb[/font] but in the evening of Shabbat. It was the evening that began the first of the week and ended the Shabbat. This wasn't the evening beginning Shabbat because the next phrase [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)] 0b4b dx hgnd[/font] that dawned first of the week clarifies the time period. The precise hour of the resurrection of our LORD Yeshua is not given. There is however a hint from the wording of this text, that very early Sunday morning Yeshua our LORD and Saviour rose from the grave. There is no evidence either in the Gospels or anywhere else in the New Testament that Yeshua rose on Shabbat.
Shlama,
Stephen
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ograabe Wrote:August 8, 2008
Dear Paul:
Your interlinear of Mark 16:2 reads: "They came to the cemetery as the sun was rising at early morning of the first day tof the week." That doesn't seem to tell us anything about exactly how much earlier or when the resurrection occurred.
Likewise Mark 16:9 has "At early morning of the first of the week he had risen...." That seems to be relating an event that had already occurred. Hence, we apparently cannot be certain from the text exactly when the resurrection occurred. It may have been on Saturday, but the women waited until after the sabbath to visit the tomb.
Am I missing something here?
Best regards,
Otto
Shlama Akhi Otto,
Not really missing anything at all, it's more of you are open to an argument from silence. That's not necessarily a bad thing. But it is an argument from silence.
He may have risen on Saturday, or ..... he may have risen in the 10-12 hours of Sunday darkness before the dawn when they visited the tomb. Remember that Sunday began when the sun went down Sabbath evening. Say, for the sake of argument, 9PM Saturday our reckoning today in the U.S.A. Back then, that would have been considered Sunday morning. To us, Sunday morning begins the second after 11:59:59 PM on Saturday night. Back then, it was a couple of hours earlier.
So He could have arisen on what we, today, call "Saturday night". Let's say 11:30 PM on Saturday.
BUT, and this is the key, that is considered to be Sunday, not Saturday, according to the Semitic keeping of time.
I think if God wanted us to know about a Sabbath resurrection, the scriptures would have been a little clearer about it. There's no compelling reason to believe that He arose on Saturday (before Sundown, say at 6 PM). It's an argument from silence.
+Shamasha Paul
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Greetings Paul, if possible I would like to stick to what the Peshitta says and not what man says.
To quote your own words "He rose on the 1st day of the week (Sunday) early in the morning before dawn....as the Scriptures plainly say....
If the women waited till after the sabbath to visit the tomb I am still hoping to get a response as to why they were walking on the sabbath to the tomb?
If it was 'twilight of the sabbath now in the evening' which as stated precedes the first day, again why were they walking?
The reason I am asking these questions is because the argument has been presented that 'the twilight of the sabbath' must be the end of the sabbath because the scriptures (Peshitta) says so. If as stated, the Peshitta has primacy over the Greek or other writings, this translation brings with it something to question, i.e. it's authenticity. Now by this, I mean it could be the Peshitta itself OR the translation.
As we know in the world system of Christianity, the phrase 'first day of the week' has been at the forefront of much doctrine, e.g. Sunday worship, Sunday sabbath, doing away with the law (Torah), etc, etc, etc.
Mark
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Shlama Akhi Mark.
markt Wrote:Greetings Paul, if possible I would like to stick to what the Peshitta says and not what man says.
Great.
markt Wrote:To quote your own words "He rose on the 1st day of the week (Sunday) early in the morning before dawn....as the Scriptures plainly say....
Yes.
markt Wrote:If the women waited till after the sabbath to visit the tomb I am still hoping to get a response as to why they were walking on the sabbath to the tomb?
Who said they were walking on the Sabbath to the tomb? The scriptures certainly don't. The scriptures say that they walked to the tomb at dawn. Sabbath had ended about 10 hours before that time.
markt Wrote:If it was 'twilight of the sabbath now in the evening' which as stated precedes the first day, again why were they walking?
You don't understand.
The scriptures say that it was dawn, after the "ending" evening of the Sabbath.
The next day begins at Sundown in our culture. In the western world, we have clocks that strike midnight. We, here in the west, consider midnight to be the start of the next day. Not in the middle east, where they consider the sunset to be the next day. That means if the sun sets at 9pm on Saturday, it becomes Sunday. We're not waiting till 12:01 am to declare the start of Sunday. It happened already at 9:01 pm.
I hope that made sense?
markt Wrote:The reason I am asking these questions is because the argument has been presented that 'the twilight of the sabbath' must be the end of the sabbath because the scriptures (Peshitta) says so.
Yes, and it's not an argument it's fact.
markt Wrote:If as stated, the Peshitta has primacy over the Greek or other writings, this translation brings with it something to question, i.e. it's authenticity. Now by this, I mean it could be the Peshitta itself OR the translation.
Why?
markt Wrote:As we know in the world system of Christianity, the phrase 'first day of the week' has been at the forefront of much doctrine, e.g. Sunday worship, Sunday sabbath, doing away with the law (Torah), etc, etc, etc.
I hate to break this to you, but if you're looking for justification for a Sabbath resurrection, you're looking at the wrong version of scripture. There's absolutely nothing in the Peshitta, or the Greek and Latin for that matter, that says anything about the resurrection occurring on Saturday. Not a single mention of the Sabbath being the day the resurrection happened.
Quite to the contrary, the Aramaic clearly states that he was risen on the 1st day of the week. If you look at any Aramaic calendar, you will see the name of the first day of the week is the same as the word used in the scripture.
Take care!
+Shamasha Paul
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Dear Paul, inspite of your assumptions about me or any intended beliefs on my part you are unfortunately misguided. I started out (and have stuck with) asking questions about the Aramaic language pertaining to references made in English (translation?).
If, as you are assuming, that I believe (from the scriptures) in a Sabbath resurrection, then you too are misguided (and I hate to break this to you), as I don't!
I do, however, find it curious, that the peshitta texts omit to state that the Sabbath 'lighted' up, as the Greek texts do (perhaps a real blessing that the Greek language has preserved the Jewish tradition of 'lighting up').
I find it also curious that the rendering in the King James Version "in the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre", which is as we know, taken from the Textus Receptus.
Forgive me for appearing to be 'suspicious' but the comparison is so similar it's scary! Hence my questions and reasonings...
Shalom,
Mark
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