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Yakub 5:3 - Fire or Treasure?
#1
KJV:
Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

Etheridge:
You have gathered fire for you for the last days !

Could someone explain the source of this difference?
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#2
enarxe Wrote:KJV:
Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

Etheridge:
You have gathered fire for you for the last days !

Could someone explain the source of this difference?

Shlama Akhi Enarxe:
Etheridge is correct. The word "nuwra" is translated as "fire" in the Peshitta. Curiously there is a visual similarity between the spelling of "gza", "treasure, treasury" and "gzl", "inflame, fire". Also, "nwra" and "gzl" are synonyms. Perhaps this is the source of the word "treasure" from the Greek text, in that the synonym "nuwra" was mistaken to mean "treasure" and translated into Greek as "pura". That's my take on it but perhaps Paul Younan, David Bauscher or Andrew Roth would like to take a stab at this. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

James 5:3 Etheridge
and your gold and your silver rusteth, and the rust of them is for a witness against you, and is to eat your flesh. You have gathered fire for you for the last days !

Mark 14:54 Etheridge
But Shemun from afar came after him, until within the court of the chief of the priests: and he sat with the servants, and warmed (himself) at the fire.

Luke 9:54 Etheridge
And when Jacub and Juchanon his disciples saw it, they say to him, Maran, [Our Lord.] art thou willing that we call fire to descend from heaven to consume them, as Elia did?

Luke 17:29 Etheridge
but in the day that Lut went forth from Sadum, the Lord rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

Shlama,
Stephen
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#3
Just a random thought, it may also be possible that in the text that Zorba had someone had substituted gza for nwra.
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#4
Dawid Wrote:Just a random thought, it may also be possible that in the text that Zorba had someone had substituted gza for nwra.

Shlama Akhi Dawid:
Somehow I think it unlikely that there was an extant, transcribed Peshitta manuscript using "gza" (treasure) instead of "nwra" (fire) for (James 5:3). There would be no need for the use of an ambiguous synonym like "gzl" by an Aramaic scribe that had been solemnly entrusted to transcribe the text. As has been seen on numerous occasions, it is Zorba that had to choose the appropriate and contextual synonyms, in the task of translating the Peshitta text into Greek. For the most part the Greek is an excellent translation of the Aramaic "autograph". It is purely speculative on my part to assume any scenario. I'm just making what I think to be a logical observation (logical to me). <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> I just find it curious that "gzl" (fire) and "gza" (treasure) look very similar in the Estrangelo text type. On the other hand LAMED looks nothing like an ALEF in First Century K'tav Ashuri/Dead Sea Scrolls/Herodian. Developing this thought, this is second century stuff when the "autograph" was transcribed into Estrangelo, not first century with the "autograph" in K'tav Ashuri.

Shlama,
Stephen
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#5
Shlama all,

The Greek text has the word for fire in the text; in fact, a simple change in punctuation will give practically the same reading as The Peshitta reading:
kai fagetai tav sarkav umwn wv pur eyhsaurisate en escataiv hmeraiv
"and shall eat your flesh, as you laid up fire in the last days!" - my translation of the Greek.

The noun "treasure" is not in the Greek; it is from a verb eqjsaurisate ethesaurisate (we get the word "Thesaurus" -"Treasury,storehouse" from this Greek word); this verb means
Quote:1) to gather and lay up, to heap up, store up
.

There is no real difference between the Greek and the Aramaic of this verse. The translators seem to have interpreted it differently from the Greek.

Burkta Rakhmay,

Dave
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#6
gbausc Wrote:Shlama all,

The Greek text has the word for fire in the text; in fact, a simple change in punctuation will give practically the same reading as The Peshitta reading:
kai fagetai tav sarkav umwn wv pur eyhsaurisate en escataiv hmeraiv
"and shall eat your flesh, as you laid up fire in the last days!" - my translation of the Greek.

The noun "treasure" is not in the Greek; it is from a verb eqjsaurisate ethesaurisate (we get the word "Thesaurus" -"Treasury,storehouse" from this Greek word); this verb means
Quote:1) to gather and lay up, to heap up, store up
.

There is no real difference between the Greek and the Aramaic of this verse. The translators seem to have interpreted it differently from the Greek.

Burkta Rakhmay,

Dave

Shlama Akhi David:
Thank you for clearing this up.

Shlama,
Stephen
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#7
gbausc Wrote:Shlama all,

The Greek text has the word for fire in the text; in fact, a simple change in punctuation will give practically the same reading as The Peshitta reading:
kai fagetai tav sarkav umwn wv pur eyhsaurisate en escataiv hmeraiv
"and shall eat your flesh, as you laid up fire in the last days!" - my translation of the Greek.
[..]
Dave

Oh, I see. I should have really quoted KJV in full and looked up Greek properly. So in Greek "hos pyr" (fire) can be glued to the preceeding words (as in KJV: ".. and [rust] shall eat your flesh as it were *fire*. Ye have heaped treasure together ..") or to those following (as in Etheridge: "and [rust] is to eat your flesh. *Fire* you have gathered ...").

Yet another KJV-ism, I guess (this translation with treasure gathering following flesh-eating just doesn't make sense in this context, definitely all other translations, including yours, are more correct here). While Greek allows two differing translations there is only one way to read it in Peshitta, am I correct? Word order in Greek is exactly as in the Peshitta, just wondering if both ways to interpret the Greek are equally grammatically sensible.

Thank you David.
Jerzy
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#8
August 7, 2008

Hello all,

You will not be surprised that I would like to mention Lamsa's translation.

Yakub 5:3 "Your gold and silver are tarnished, and the rust of them will be a testimony against you and will eat your flesh. The treasures which you have heaped together will be as fire to you for the last days."

Otto
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