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Messianic/Nazarene VS. Christian
#1
Shlama,

Frist, I want to make it clear that it was a young Jewish lady who first helped me to really understand The New Testament, and to tell me how a Relationship to Messiah could actually work.

This was in 1971, there were NO "Messianic Jews" then, or "Nazarenes" then.....there were some "Hebrew Christians" then, but I doubt that there were any in 1971 Little Rock, Arkansas, where I grew up.

The young lady who Introduced me to Messiah would have called herself one "of the Jesus People".

I write this here, because I don't know if it belongs in the Messianic/Nazarene Section of the Forum.

If you look at the dialogue between Dawid and Andrew Gabriel Roth, Dawid seems to say that the Christians worship ANOTHER GOD, and if I understand Dawid's idea's correctly, ANOTHER MESSIAH.

I personally find this to be elitist, racist (and I take it that "Dawid" is a Gentile, by birth) not to mention that it goes contrary to Messiah's OWN TEACHINGS.

I know that Andrew is Jewish, I know that Stephen Silver is Jewish, and I know that there are others here on this board who are Jewish, either fully Jewish by both parents, or part Jewish, by one parent.

I've always had a "heart" for Israel, and the Jewish people, especially since a Jewish person introduced me to Messiah. I've always wanted to 'pay back' that great debt! (or to borrow a movie title: to "PAY IT FORWARD").

Yes, I know that the State of Israel says descent must be from one's MOTHER, but that's not how YHWH seems to see it.

For someone to tell me that I worship ANOTHER GOD, and/or ANOTHER MESSIAH, well instantly, I hear Yeshua say "Judge NOT".

To think (for example) of the Assyrian Church of the East, and it's Jewish ROOTS, well would you tell Paul Younan or ANY other member of the Assyrian COE that they "worship another God"??

Is it Dawid's (OR ANYONE ELSE'S) right to pass judgements with this kind of spiritual magnitude?? I THINK NOT!

Let me give you an example, a few months ago, one Sabbath I drove a bit South of here to a "Messianic Torah Observant" congregation that meets in Cedar Falls, Iowa.

While the Tanakh WAS read, and there was some 'Davidic Dancing' ,THERE WAS NOT ONE WORD EVER MENTIONED ABOUT MESSIAH YESHUA, during the whole probably 2 or 3 hours of the Meeting.

If THIS is what Torah Observant "Messianic Judaism" is all about, then you can COUNT ME OUT.

Perhaps I'm a CHRISTIAN, and this is a title that I need to use.

I personally feel comfortable with "Messianic Gentile", but I DON'T want to be lumped within the kind of reverse racist, elitist group that people like Dawid, and his kind represent.

I went through the end of the 1960's, and the beginning of the 1970's, when spiritual searching, and FREEDOM were still in vogue.

Yes, I see a lot about SOME Christians that I DON'T like, but this elitist thing is worse than what I see the Christians doing (or NOT DOING.....as the case may be).

This is a post searching for something stable to hold onto to. A title that JUDGE'S NO ONE ELSE, and a group to belong to that will NOT be elitist and snobby.

Perhaps I'm just getting old, and crochety! lol

In Messiah Yeshua, Albion
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#2
If anyone has a question about my positions, please see the thread in question in the Messianic/Nazarene section. My beliefs are no more elitist than those of other religions. I did not say that we serve different Gods. I clearly stated that we believe in the same God, but different Gospels, and therefore different Messiahs.
I was not raised Jewish, but my family history is, most likely, Jewish. This, though, is irrelevant, since anyone can join the nation of Israel if they wish. I am not better than another human being. Besides all that, some estimate that 60-80% of Ashkenazis are actually descendants of German, Russian, and Polish converts. So saying that I am descended from Ashkenazi Jewry probably just means I'm descended from some German who converted to Judaism 400 years ago. lol.
If anything I say is contrary to the teachings of Messiah, please point me to which teachings I am contradicting. If I am, I have no greater wish than to change my views. But please show me where he said something contrary to what I say.

Albion, I have not made an issue of being Jewish. I never brought it up. I don't understand how I am racist and elitist if I have not brought up my race. I don't know what is elitist about stating that we are of different faiths. Is it elitist for a Jew to tell a Muslim that their religions are different, though they serve the same God?

Chaveri, I was talking to akhnu Andrew when I said this. It was not intended to be exclusive or judgmental. It was meant to indicate a halachic distinction. That is all. I never told you that we were of different faiths. I told Mr. Roth that there is a halachic difference between us.

I must repeat, I never said that we worship a different God. I was very emphatic about saying that we worship the same God, in fact.

You say "judge not" but isn't it true that Yeshu'ah said "judge not that you be not judged"?

Please allow me to put it as a parable.
If two men come to the same master and receive their orders. He tells each of them to do the things on a list. Each servant interprets them according to the understanding of his heart. One must get it right and the other must get it wrong. The one that gets it wrong must do so because of the hardness of his own heart. Then can it be said that the hard-hearted servant served the Master? No. He served his own heart. So they did not follow the same master.
I understand that it may turn out in the end that I was the hard-hearted servant. But one of us must be serving the Master, and the other is serving his own hard heart. Only time will tell us which of us is following the true Master.

I am sorry that the synagogue you attended did not focus on the Messiah. If you were to visit my family on the Sabbath it is different. We read from the Torah, the K'tuvim, and what I like to call the 'Edot HaMashiakh (Testimonies of the Messiah).

Freedom is the ability to do what is right. I believe that the Torah is what is right. That is freedom. Anything less than Torah is bondage.

If we do not judge anything, Chaveri, we will accept everything. Including iniquity.

Please understand, I am not angry, I am not excited. I am simply pleading with you to listen to me and understand that I don't mean to exclude anyone. The door to the Messiah is open to anyone who desires to enter. I am simply standing by the idea that there is one faith, one hope, and one immersion in the Messiah Yeshu'ah. If there is anything I can do to bridge the gap between us, please tell me. I do not know what you want from me, chaver.

Shabbath shalom,
Dawid
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#3
I want you to STOPusing the word "xian" or "Xtian".

You say you use this negative terminology because "the Orthodox do".

The Ultra Orthodox HATEthe Israeli Messianic Believers (the vast majority of whom are JEWS by birth. That is, they have a Jewish mother, or father, or BOTH).

The Ultra Orthodox have gone to the point of bombing innocent Messianic children in Israel, which if you've read the posts about Israel, you've seen. How can ANYONE condone this?

I'm telling you that the Orthodox borrowed this term ("xian or "xtian") from the Neo-Pagans, I don't really care if you believe me, or not.

Then you try to say (if I understand you correctly) that because one of Yeshua's Disciples was crucified on an Xshaped cross, this somehow makes it OK to use this foul word.

Historically, ONLY ONE of Yeshua's Disciple's was murdered on an X shaped cross, but I don't really see what this has to do with ANYTHING.

To see Gentiles dress up like Orthodox Jews, is like seeing white people dress up like the Native American people(s).

It's a sad and deeply racist kind of joke.

Let me tell you a story.

I used to live in New Mexico (from 1980 till 1984).

I had a friend that lived for awhile near Jemez Pueblo (near Jemez Springs, New Mexico).

He learned enough Tewa (the language of the Pueblo's) to be reasonably conversant with the Native people.

One morning he was walking into a store and a full blood Pueblo walked into the store at the same time as he.

He said "Good morning, how are you?" In Tewa trying to be simply polite.

This young Pueblo man said "Yeah, white man, you can learn to speak some of our language, BUT YOU CAN NEVER BE ONE OF US!"

This is the same dilemma that Gentiles face, trying to become "Jews".

Yes, you ARE Grafted On to that Sweet Vine that has roots deep into Hebrew soil, but you WILL ALWAYS BE A GENTILE.

Now, if you chose to call yourself "a Messianic Gentile", THAT'S a true telling of who you really are.

I know exactly what it takes to convert fully to Judaism, and I seriously doubt that you've done those things.

The first (or perhaps the second) thing would be TO DENY THAT YESHUA IS THE MESSIAH.

That's about all that I have to say.

I wish you a Peaceful Sabbath, Albion
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#4
Since you find it offensive, I will not use the term Xian in your presence. I am sorry that it caused offense.

I have fully converted according to the mitswoth of the Torah and the halacha of Rav Yeshu'ah ben Yoseph. Please realize that the Rabbanite standard is not the only standard of Judaism. There are also Karaite, Essene, Falasha, Samaritan, and N'tsari standards. I converted fully to Judaism according to the latter standard.

If I remain a Gentile, then I have no hope, since the Mashiakh said "I came not but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." To join oneself to the Messiah he must join the commonwealth of Israel. He cannot remain a Gentile. He must convert.

That is not true. I know people who have made full Orthodox conversions without ever being required to deny Yeshu'ah. I am not saying that it is a good idea to convert to Orthodoxy. I think it is a very bad idea. But it is not true that one must necessarily deny Yeshu'ah. Often the Beyth Din simply doesn't ask.

Shabbath Shalom,
Dawid
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#5
"Go, and make Disciples of ALL THE NATIONS". Mattai 28:19

"THE NATIONS"= Gentiles.
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#6
Albion Wrote:"Go, and make Disciples of ALL THE NATIONS". Mattai 28:19

"THE NATIONS"= Gentiles.
Yes. Take members of the nations and turn them into Talmidim. Hence, bney Yisra'el. One may start out a Gentile and become a follower of the Rabbi, but he must join Israel.
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#7
Dawid,

Do you not honestly feel that Messiah Yeshua would NOThave said exactly what you say here.......IF THAT WAS WHAT HE MEAN'T?

Come on Dawid................you take The Scriptures and bend them to fit your own PRIVATE interpretation of them.

That's convenient, but it's NOT what Messiah was saying.

Albion


Dawid Wrote:
Albion Wrote:"Go, and make Disciples of ALL THE NATIONS". Mattai 28:19

"THE NATIONS"= Gentiles.
Yes. Take members of the nations and turn them into Talmidim. Hence, bney Yisra'el. One may start out a Gentile and become a follower of the Rabbi, but he must join Israel.
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#8
Then what did he mean when he said he came not but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel?
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#9
Dawid Wrote:Then what did he mean when he said he came not but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

Could he not have meant the House of Israel, as in those who were carried away captives a few centuries before His ministry?

Why "lost?"

Certainly the Jews were anything but "lost" in those days, they were living in the land.

+Shamasha Paul
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#10
That, Mr. Younan, I could agree with.
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#11
Dawid Wrote:That, Mr. Younan, I could agree with.

Where does Josephus tell you they were when he was alive?

+Shamasha
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#12
Paul Younan Wrote:
Dawid Wrote:That, Mr. Younan, I could agree with.

Where does Josephus tell you they were when he was alive?

+Shamasha
I realise that you're going to indicate the COE. But I think it is clear that the COE is not observant of many mitswoth, which I believe is required.

Chaver Albion,
I would like to point out that you and I would agree that Yeshu'ah sent out the Talmidim to make more Talmidim. He sent them out to convert and to teach. Our only disagreement on this point is what they were to convert them to. I believe that he did not start a new religion, but sent the Shlachim out to make Talmidim of "Judaism." Perhaps you would prefer "Israelism" or "Yahwism." However I call the name of it, I think you understand what I am referring to. I believe that they were to convert people as the "Mixed multitude" was converted.
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#13
Dawid Wrote:
Paul Younan Wrote:
Dawid Wrote:That, Mr. Younan, I could agree with.

Where does Josephus tell you they were when he was alive?

+Shamasha
I realise that you're going to indicate the COE. But I think it is clear that the COE is not observant of many mitswoth, which I believe is required.

Was the House of Israel observant of any mitswoth ?

Do you think we are speaking of Jews here, or those pagan Hebrew tribes who were banished in punishment?

You didn't answer my question. Where did Josephus say they were when he was alive?

+Shamasha
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#14
Paul Younan Wrote:
Dawid Wrote:
Paul Younan Wrote:Where does Josephus tell you they were when he was alive?

+Shamasha
I realise that you're going to indicate the COE. But I think it is clear that the COE is not observant of many mitswoth, which I believe is required.

Was the House of Israel observant of any mitswoth ?

Do you think we are speaking of Jews here, or those pagan Hebrew tribes who were banished in punishment?

You didn't answer my question. Where did Josephus say they were when he was alive?

+Shamasha
No, they were not observant. That does not excuse them from not becoming Shomer HaTorah again.
They were in Mesopotamia and Asia, correct? I don't remember what Josephus said about it.
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#15
Dawid Wrote:No, they were not observant. That does not excuse them from not becoming Shomer HaTorah again.
They were in Mesopotamia and Asia, correct? I don't remember what Josephus said about it.

You have spoken correctly. They were not observant. They could care less about Jerusalem, or your prophets or your customs. That's one of the reasons why they were banished, was it not? That they were essentially Hebrew Pagans?

Did they not revert to being just plain pagan Mesopotamians like their forefather Terah?

I'm not asking for your opinion of whether you feel they should observe anything "Jewish" or not. They are not, and have never been "Jews."

I asked you whether Meshikha could have meant those of the House of Israel, who were "lost" according to His very own words.

Then I asked you to investigate from contemporary sources like Josephus as to the location of these "lost" sheep of the House of Israel. You are again correct, Josephus locates them in Mesopotamia (northern, specifically in Adiabene (Assyria).)

Not only Josephus, but also King Agrippa of the Jews himself when he gave the speech to the Jews to try and talk them out of starting a war with Rome.

Now, again, you may not like the implications of it, but to many people the fact that Meshikha's Church was established among these "lost sheep" of the House of Israel in northern Mesopotamia, and which has continuously existed to this day....is a fulfillment of these words that Meshikha spoke.

For your reference, see the speech of King Agrippa here:

http://www.interhack.net/projects/librar...b2c16.html

Quote:Must they come from the parts of the world that are uninhabited? for all that are in the habitable earth are [under the] Romans. Unless any of you extend his hopes as far as beyond the Euphrates, and suppose that those of your own nation that dwell in Adiabene will come to your assistance; but certainly these will not embarrass themselves with an unjustifiable war, nor, if they should follow such ill advice, will the Parthians permit them so to do; for it is their concern to maintain the truce that is between them and the Romans.

There are many other references from Josephus placing the "lost sheep" of the House of Israel smack dab in the middle of Adiabene, the center of the Church of the East. Let me know if you want to see them.

+Shamasha
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