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Revelation, written on Patmos after Nero?
#16
gbausc Wrote:Shlama Akhi Stephen,

Rome was founded at the village, Alba Longa, 753 BC. Where do you get "Saturnalia" as its former name? Also ,Rev. 13 says that 666 is the number of a man. Saturn was no man, simply a mythical god.
Rev. 13:16 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Rome was named after Romulus. I don't think his name adds to 666.

Blessings,

Dave

Shlama Akhi David:
It's true that Romulus founded Rome at Alba Longa. Nevertheless, STUR (Saturnus) is both place and false deity ascribed to ancient Rome and the seat of "religious and civil authority". Rome was not just a city, but "the seat of authority". I have identified the false deity after which ancient Rome was named.
In the scriptures, Jerusalem is called "the city of the great king". Rome, on the other hand is a challenge to God's chosen city, Jerusalem. It is this war between God and the false seat of power in Rome that the Apostle John is referring to in cryptic form, understood in his day.

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exerpt from The Two Babylons
by Alexander Hislop

Chapter VII
Section V
The Name of the Beast, the Number of His Name--
The Invisible Head of the Papacy:

To those who were initiated the god was revealed; to all else he was hidden. Now, the name Saturn in Chaldee is pronounced Satur; but, as every Chaldee scholar knows, consists only of four letters, thus--Stur. This name contains exactly the Apocalyptic number 666:--

S = 060
T = 400
U = 006
R = 200

I've read Alexander Hislop's book, "The Two Babylons" and agree with much, if not all of his research about the symbolism he has uncovered. The Chaldee origin of the false deity STUR became the Roman "seat of authority". The Caesars were worshipped. This continued till Constantine when Rome became Christian and from that time, incidentally, a split occurred between Western Christianity and the Church of the East, which has remained till this day. Much of our research concerning the Peshitta is solidly challenged by Greek primacy which I think began sometime before Cyril of Alexandria and was firmly established by the Ecumenical Counsels of the 4th and 5th Centuries. Having said this I realize that there are many Catholic members of this forum that could be offended if I would continue this thread, so "nuff said".

Shlama,
S P Silver
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#17
Shlama Akhi Stephen,

The connection from Saturn to Rome I can grant, at least from Ovid's mythological account of the god Janus describing how Jupiter cast down Saturn his Father to
Italia, where he remained the hidden god. From there Hislop contends Janus was Saturn as well; from there he contends that "Janus" comes from Chaldean "He Anesth" ="The man". Janus in Latin is "Ianus", which means "Gateway". For Hislop to make it Greek is dishonest and misleading; it certainly had nothing to do with the Hebrew "Ha Enosh" or Aramaic "Enosh" ("Human being").

The argument starts out tenuous, since he starts talking about pre-Roman times and names, and gets weaker when he identifies Saturn with Janus, which Ovid contradicts, along with other Latin ancients, then he changes Latin to Greek and tries to link the Greek "o annes" (Greek for "the man" is "o aner") as a transliteration of ancient Aramaic "He Anesth" (the man?), which does not exist in any language, as far as I can tell.

Exactly what does he think he is trying to pull here?
A quick reading would fool a lot of people. A careful measured study of his main points will not sustain his case. It falls flat like a house of cards.

Blessings,

Dave
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#18
Dear brothers and sisters in the Faith in Christ Jesus our Lord and God,
Please accept my contribution to this discussion on the issue of the number of the beast as we find on the pages of the living Word of God Revelation 13.
It is true in the ancient world that in any language the consonants had sound values and numeric values as well. So any word in any language would have the force of what it sounded like, and a numeric value. Gravette were found saying for example: ???I love 545???. So who is 666?!! The simple answer is we don???t know exactly but those who read John???s letter to whom it was addressed first as part of the infant church in their situation, then they knew exactly who it was.
Some tried to associate it with certain emperors while ignoring others. For example, some worked out it was referring to Domitian but that works if you assume the abbreviated Greek form of the full Latin name and title of this emperor.
Some suggests Nero but to get it right you must use a Hebrew transliteration of the Greek form, but this Hebrew transliteration has a defective spelling!
Some say it is Henry Kissinger and it works if in Syriac (can someone check this please! unless he is like me and thinks all is a waste of time and effort).
Some are very cleaver in mathematics and worked different interpretations.
All interpretations are misleading and a waste of time and effort, just like those who are trying to work out the date of our Lord???s return, although our Lord says no one knows that hour/day/month/year except God our Father.

If only people listen to the Word of God carefully and learn what is He is warning against. The issue is not who the beast is/was as a person, but what he is demanding from all people, and what he is doing to those who reject his mark especially those who accepted the mark of the Lamb the Son of God Jesus Christ. The church history is full of such beasts till this day and such beasts will continue to appear till the Return of our Lord.
People are locked on this number but don???t understand what the Holy Spirit is saying. The beast is a deceiver and a persecutor (in the context of chapter 13) and demands enormous conformity from all people of different gender and age (vv.16-17), or they will be under his wrath! The beast could be a person, a philosophy, an ideology (the many isms in our day), a religion, a system, or a combination of those.
I think it is part of God???s inspired wisdom (v.18) to us to be on alert and be wise, because the Church history is full of deceivers and persecutors. What protects us is the continuous reading and re-reading of the Word of God to identify such deceivers (beasts), and not to accept their marks and not to be afraid of their wrath. We forget that those beasts and whoever accepts their marks are all under the Wrath of the Lamb forever (a main theme in the book of Revelation); but those who have the mark of the Lamb are saved from His Wrath (similar picture found in God???s Word in the Old Testament Revelation in Ezekiel 9). People should be afraid not from the one who can destroy the body, but from who has the authority to destroy both body and soul in Hell forever, God the Creator and the Saviour and the Righteous Judge.
Yours in Christ
Henry
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#19
Shlama Akhi Henry,

I agree in principle with your post except that the spelling of "Neron Qesar" is defective in Hebrew. The Aramaic mss. introduce Revelation with the same spelling and the Greek of Josephus has "Neron Kaisar" several times, so I don't see where the spelling is defective.

Blessings in our Savior,

Qashisha Dave
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#20
I don't think we can come to any definite conclusions, because we don't even know for sure if 666 is the correct number, there are earlier Greek mss which read 616 and others which read 656, pity the Aramaic original didn't survive (or we haven't found it yet, I'll never stop hoping).

As for 666 itself, I've heard that this is the number of the Quran (and that even Muslims admit this), and that turning the Greek letters sideways spells the Arabic phrase "Bismillah" (in the name of Allah). Ever heard of Walid Shoebat?

Here's the pics:
[Image: 16479040.jpg]
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#21
Shlama Christina and Rafa,

The numbers 666 and 616 both occur in Greek mss. (616 in Codex C-5th cent.) & come from the Aramaic for "Nero Caesar".
"Nero" is (Nun=50, Resh=200. Waw=6,- Nun=50) in Aramaic, or (Nun, Resh, Waw)- 2 spellings.
Caesar is Qop=100, Simkat=60, Resh=200. There is also the plenary-full spelling of "Nero" which is (Nun,Alap,Resh,Waw,Nun)
Using the first spelling of Nero, the full name "Nero Caesar" adds up to 666.
This spelling is called "defective" in Hebrew, since it lacks the vowel place holder Alap, but is still pronounced the same. "Defective", as Pastor Henry means it (I think) does not mean it is mis-spelled, just lacking an Alap or another silent letter which does not change the name or pronunciation. This occurs in The Hebrew Bible as well as The Peshitta, which have alternate spellings for names such as Joshua, Jerusalem, Uzziah, David, and many others.Both the plenary and "defective" spellings for the same name occur in the same book or books by the same author.
The second spelling for "Nero" - 3 letters + "Caesar", gives a total of 616. Count it for yourself. So both Greek readings of 666 and 616 most likely come from "Nero Caesar" in Aramaic! (or possibly Hebrew, though Hebrew is quite an unlikely candidate at that)

Greek names cannot account for either number. I have not seen the 656 number, Christina.Do you know where it is?

Blessings,

Dave
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#22
To Christina, I heard a pastor say that in a movie, the radical muslims were wearing bands on their right arms and around their forehead. He (chuck missler) said that he was not 100% sure if this is connected with revelation chapter 13, but something to pray about.
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#23
Shlama Rafa,

I don't know if you've ever heard this before, but Princess Dianna was a real UFO buff.

She told some of her very close girlfriends that Prince Charles was "a Reptilian".

That is, she actually believed that Charles was descended from an evil alien race of "Reptilians". <!-- s:nervous: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/nervous.gif" alt=":nervous:" title="Nervous" /><!-- s:nervous: -->

I thought that you might find this of some interest.

Peace, Albion
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#24
Yea, she said he had a forked tongue and could move along on the garden rocks in a strange way....
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#25
You know being a very famous celebrity seems to make some people a little, or a LOT crazy.

Diana obviously, had plenty of reasons to hate Charles.

I don't know how she developed her interests in aliens and UFO's, but she actually said this.

I didn't say that * I * believed it, but that Diana believed it.

If you look at the day Diana died, Mother Theresa also died.

And look at those two lives, juxtaposed against one another.

Very, very sad.

In Him, Albion



Thirdwoe Wrote:Yea, she said he had a forked tongue and could move along on the garden rocks in a strange way....
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#26
gbausc Wrote:I have not seen the 656 number, Christina.Do you know where it is?

The article from which I read that didn't list the mss which contain the 656 reading. I've been searching the net concerning this, and so far haven't found anything (same goes for the other 2 numbers). So far I can't find a site that says "this mss has this number". Maybe it's not true after all, if that's the case then my bad.
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#27
Shlama David and Christina,

For what it is worth, I have never heard of a 656 gematria in Rev 13:18. However, I have heard that there is a 3rd century (Latin?) extract by an early Church Father (Origen maybe?) that talks about 616 gematria in the line. I have never found any evidence to support this nor do I think it persuasive in the least to overcome the traditional Nero-666 connection.

On the other hand though, if it was a scribal error and 616 was intended, we have an id with another Roman Emperor who was and cruel and decadent as Nero ever was, none other than Caligula himself. Now Caligula, while he was not knows as an early persecutor of the faithful like Nero was, still has the distinction of certainly being beast like in his appetites and excess, and he was no friend to either the Hebrew or Gentile branches of the Way to be sure. The first martyr, Stephen, would have died a few months prior to Caligula taking power in CE 37. Josephus, who was born that very year, later writes mostly in praise of Caligula in the early part of his rule I think.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
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#28
But what if this 666 has absolutely nothing to do with the Romans?
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#29
Shlama Christina,

Did you read my post on Nero Caesar? His name in Aramaic can account for the two Greek readings of 666 and 616. What more evidence do you need that it not only had to do with the Romans, but had to do with Nero Caesar himself? What are the chances that this one name, Nero Caesar, could give both numbers, using a variant spelling of the name without the Nun at the end of Nero(n) Qisar (666) and Nero Qisar (616)? Show me another name that renders both numbers by Gematria.

The Aramaic mss. of Revelation say at the start that John was exiled by "Neron Qisar" to the Isle of Patmos. John did not want to broadcast that publicly in his epistle for obvious reasons; that was added later after Nero was dead (AD 68), but he put it in coded form so his readers would understand the spiritual and prophetic significance of the times in which they were living, even relating it to Daniel's prophecy over 600 years before concerning "the fourth beast with ten horns , which shall be a fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all kingdoms, which would "devour the whole earth"- Daniel 7:7-25 (all of which was written in Aramaic in Daniel, by the way). Does anyone doubt that The fourth beast of Daniel was the Roman Empire? Daniel foretold the Babylonian,Persian, Greek and then the Roman Empire (7:1-7). The viciousness and terror of that empire culminated in the reign of Nero in the first century, so Nero represented the beast and was one of the ten horns, or "another horn, a little one, with eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words." Dan. 7:8
Nero was primarily responsible for two significant actions. He declared Christianity a crime, which remained Roman policy thereafter. He also enforced this policy by exterminating multitudes of Christians:"Some were clothed in animal skins and torn to pieces by dogs.; others were impaled on crosses in order to be set on fire to afford light by night after daylight had died..." (Tacitus, early 2nd century writing of the Roman historian). Tacitus also was the first heathen author to document that Christ was executed under Pontius Pilate and that His followers were called "Christians" by the populace.
It was in the reign of Nero, after the fire of 64 AD, that the first hostile step was taken by the government against the Christians, earliest account of which is given by Tacitus (Ann. xv.44). Nero???s reckless career had given rise to the rumor that he was the incendiary, that he wished to see the old city burned in order to rebuild it on more magnificent plans. See NERO. Though he did everything possible to arrest the flames, even exposing his own life, took every means of alleviating the destitution of the sufferers, and ordered such religious rites as might appease the wrath of the gods, the suspicion still clung to him.

Quote:"Accordingly in order to dissipate the rumor, he put forward as guilty (subdidit reos) and inflicted the most cruel punishments on those who were hated for their abominations (flagitia) and called Christians by the populace. The originator of that name, Christus, had been executed by the procurator Pontius Pilatus in the reign of Tiberius, and the baneful superstition (exitiabilis superstitio) put down for the time being broke out again, not only throughout Judea, the home of this evil, but also in the City (Rome) where all atrocious and shameful (atrocia aut pudenda) things converge and are welcomed. Those therefore who confessed (i.e. to being Christians) were first arrested, and then by the information gained from them a large number (multitudo ingens) were implicated (coniuncti is the manuscript reading, not conuicti), not so much on the charge of incendiarism as for hatred of mankind (odio humani generis). The victims perished amid mockery (text here uncertain); some clothed in the skins of wild beasts were torn to pieces by dogs; others impaled on crosses in order to be set on fire to afford light by night after daylight had died. .... Whence (after these cruelties) commiseration began to be felt for them, though guilty and deserving the severest penalties (quamquam adversus sontes et novissima exempla meritos), for men felt their destruction was not from considerations of public welfare but to gratify the cruelty of one person (Nero)."
-International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
A third significant fact is that the apostles Peter and Paul were executed in Rome in AD 67 or 68, under Nero. I have no doubt that these are the two witnesses written of in Revelation 11. Nero's persecution policy started in AD 64 and continued, of course, until his death about 4 years later. WIthin a 3 & 1/2 year period, he had executed Christianity's two most prominent and powerful apostles, and yet, their influence only greatly increased after their deaths (were raised up and glorified-Rev. 11:12). Nero's policy remained throughout the Roman Empire until Constantine in AD 313, though not all Emperors enforced it; in fact only a few were so inclined, Domitian being one of them, starting in AD 73 and lasting until AD 96. Nero, no doubt, thought he would quench, or at least quell, the fire of Christian faith, by killing their two chief apostles and exiling John, the third most prominent. He was greatly mistaken, of course! Christianity never really took off until that persecution arose and scattered the church and converts across the globe.

Nero started two fires in Rome: the literal fire which threatened to destroy the city of Rome (of "Nero fiddling while Rome burned" fame) and the policy of making Christianity illegal and sanctioning the violation of his policy by death. This fire of persecution policy lasted for over 200 years in Rome. Different Emperors had different views of this policy, but the policy itself was there for whichever Emperor saw fit to implement it. This meant that no Christian would be safe at any point during the first 250 years of Christian history anywhere in the Roman world. At any moment, one man's will or mood could determine that he would level this charge of Christian hatred of mankind (odio humani generis) and they would be susceptible to imprisonment, torture and death. It would require true faith to declare oneself a follower of The Christ during this time of Roman rule.And this was persecution specifically aimed at a particular faith, not a race, which means the Christian could have denied his faith and recanted to save his life.

Blessings,

Dave
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#30
Dear brothers and sisters in the Faith in Christ Jesus our Lord and God,
Please accept my contribution to this discussion on the issue of the number of the beast as we find on the pages of the living Word of God Revelation 13.

It is true in the ancient world that in any language the consonants had sound values and numeric as well. So any word in any language would have the force of what it sounded like, and a numeric value. Gravette were found saying for example: ???I love 545???. So who is 666?!! The simple answer is we don???t know but those who read John???s letter to whom it was addressed first as part of the infant church in their situation, then they knew exactly who it was.

Some tried to associate it with certain emperors while ignoring others. For example, some worked out it was referring to Domitian but that works if you assume the abbreviated Greek form of the full Latin name and title of this emperor.

Some suggests Nero but to get it right you must use a Hebrew transliteration of the Greek form, but this Hebrew transliteration has a defective spelling!
Some say it is Henry Kissinger and it works if in Syriac (can someone check this please! unless he is like me and thinks all is a waste of time and effort).
Some are very cleaver in mathematics and worked different interpretations.

All interpretations are misleading and a waste of time and effort, just like those who are trying to work out the date of our Lord???s return, although our Lord says no one knows that hour/day/month/year except God our Father.

If only people listen to the Word of God carefully and learn what is He is warning against. The issue is not who the beast is/was as a person, but what he is demanding from all people and what he is doing to those who reject his mark, especially those who accepted the mark of the Lamb the Son of God Jesus Christ. The church history is full of such beasts till this day and such beasts will continue to appear till the Return of our Lord.

People are locked on this number but don???t understand what the Holy Spirit is saying. The beast is a deceiver and a persecutor (in the context of chapter 13) and demands enormous conformity from all people of different gender and age (vv.16-17), or they will be under his wrath! The beast could be a person, a philosophy, an ideology (the many isms of the day), a religion, a system, or a combination of those.

I think it is part of God???s inspired wisdom (v.18) to us to be on alert and be wise, because the Church history is full of deceivers and persecutors. What protects us is the continuous reading and re-reading of the Word of God to identify such deceivers (beasts), and not to accept their marks and not to be afraid of their wrath. We forget that those beasts and whoever accepts their marks are all under the Wrath of the Lamb forever; but those who have the mark of the Lamb are saved from His Wrath (similar picture found in God???s Word in the Old Testament Revelation in Ezekiel 9). People should be afraid not from the one who can destroy the body, but from who has the authority to destroy both body and soul in Hell forever, God the Creator and the Saviour and the Righteous Judge.

Yours in Christ

Henry
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