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Concerning Dave. B's New Testament
#16
Dear Sean,

First off, welcome to Peshitta.org!! This is a GREAT e-list!

Secondly, I think that your quotes are absolutely right on.

I think that clearly, Yeshua was "a sin offering".

You said it well (better than I could have), and I think that your correct.

Again, welcome to the Board!

Shlama Akhi, Albion

Sean said:

"Jesus was not made sin, he was a sin offering. Sin is something that one commits, this is where alot of people get it wrong. Similar to the sin offering in the old testament."


sean Wrote:According to hebrews 9-14, Jesus offered himself to God, without blemish. If Jesus was made sin on the cross, the whole salvation plan for mankind does not make sense anymore, this is dangerous. Jesus was a pure,holy, unblemished sacrifice for our sins, amen, and he is still holy and will always be holy, he is truly our saviour and our redeemer.
See leviticus 6-25'.....the sin offering be killed before the lord,it is most holy'. Also hebrew 7-26.' pure, without evil, and undefiled' (lamsa translation).
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#17
Hello Dave, in hebrew the term for sin and sin-offering are the same, chatta't. Jesus never sinned, and he was not made sin. Sin in something, that someone does. Jesus was a offering for our sins. Think deeply about this, if Jesus was not holy, the Father would not have been pleased with his dying on the cross. If he was not holy, the whole salvation plan falls apart. I do not believe most bibles have translated 2 corinthians5-21 correctly. Remember it also saids that Jesus was made our righteousness, Jesus was holy or he was not holy. He was holy, all this is said in love, your brother sean.
Also sin is an act, in thought ,word or deed, it is not something tangible. Nobody can be made sin.
Let's look at other verses as well, like Isaiah 53-11, my righteous servant. 'For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous' 1 peter 3-18. Jesus was 'an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet savour',ephesians 5-2 . 'Be holy, as I am Holy' 1 peter 1-16. 'Through Jesus Christ who, from God , is wisdom and righteousness and santification and salvation to all of us' 1 corinthians 1-30.
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#18
Thank you, Albion , for your reply, it is very encouraging.
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#19
Ga 3:13 But the Messiah hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, and hath been a curse for us; (for it is written, Cursed is everyone that is hanged on a treeWink

Was He also not made a curse for us?

Pe 2:24 And he took away all our sins, and, in his body, lifted them to the cross; that we, when dead to sin, might live by his righteousness: for by his wounds, ye are healed.

Was He not our sin bearer? We may not look upon "becoming sin" as literal; it was a legal transaction. He took our place as sinners and bore our sins and gave us His righteousness. What do you think He was doing on the cross? He died the death of the soul that every sinner dies (The soul that sinneth, it shall die.)
I agree that Yeshua was a sin offering. I also believe Paul wrote that He became the accursed one because He was able to take all the sin that ever was or would be unto Himself and die as a sinner in our place. The Eastern Peshitta NT I just received says in this verse 2 Cor. 5:21 :"He became a sinner for us." Most mss. apparently have "sin" , but it illustrates the view I am discussing. Our Lord was absolutely Holy and was The Righteousness of God Himself. Only He could absorb, take away and atone for all sin by exchanging His absolute and infinite Holiness for all sin; He became sin; we become God's righteousness in return; He died and we died with Him :2 Cor 5:14. He arose and we arose with Him. "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." What is true in Physics is also true in the spiritual realm. He dies-we live.
Only because He is Who He is can this happen


Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
There was a spiritual aspect to the atonement; it was not all simply a physical offering, though that was involved as well.

6 (ERV) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Consider how much iniquity that was; it was for all souls of all time of all the world, and "the earth abides forever."- Eccles. 1:4. It is tantamount to saying, if not quite literally: "He became sin in our place- in our behalf." He absorbed infinite sin; He was saturated and surrounded with sin; it filled His mind, heart and Soul. God did not want His Holy Son to suffer and die; He wanted sin to die. People have the idea that God The Father wanted blood, pain and death from an innocent soul for our sin, and that would satisfy Him somehow. What a monstrosity of a God! God never would want an innocent person to suffer and die. But God was willing to suffer and die to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself, Soul and Body.

Consider the following passage of The Book of Hebrews from The Peshitta:
16. For where there is a testament, it shows the death of him who made it;
17. But it is only valid concerning one who is dead, because as long as he who made it lives, there is no use for it.
18. Because of this, not even the first was established without blood.
19. For when the entire ordinance which was in The Law had been commanded by Moses to the people, Moses took the blood of a heifer and water with scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled upon the scrolls and upon all the people.
20. And he said to them, "This is the blood of The Covenant which was commanded you by God."
21. Also he sprinkled blood upon the Tabernacle and upon all the vessels of the ministry,
22. Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23. For it is necessary that these things which are symbols of the Heavenly are purified by these things, but the Heavenly by better sacrifices than these.
24. For it was not The Holy Place made by hands that The Messiah entered, and which was the symbol of the real one, but he entered Heaven to appear before the face of God in our place;
25. And not that he should offer himself many times, as The High Priest was doing and entered The Holy Place every year with blood that was not his;
26. Otherwise, he ought to have suffered many times from the beginning of the world, but now in the end of the world, he has offered himself one time to destroy sin by his sacrifice.
27. And just as it is appointed to the children of men to die once, and after their deaths the judgment,
28. In this way also, The Messiah was offered one time and he slaughtered in his Person the sins of the many, but the second time he appears without our sins, for the life of those who expect him. (My translation of The Peshitta)

Who made the New Covenant? -(See v.16) That Covenant and Will could only become effective if God were to die. The only way God could die would be to sin or to become sin. Jesus never sinned; scripture says so, but it does say He became sin. You say sin is an act. Scripture says more than that. Scripture says it is evil ("Awala in Aramaic).See 1 John 3:4 yh alwe hlk ryg atyjx ("All sin is Awala"). I believe the English word "Evil" comes from the Aramaic "Evla"-"Evl" (transliterated) which is often rendered "iniquity" or "unrighteousness". The Apostle Paul wrote that sin resided within him (Romans 7:17,20,23) Sin was "a Law that resides in my members"; it is more than a deed; it is a power and law that takes people captive and enslaves them to evil- 7:23.

Could God make Himself evil? God can do anything He wants to do. Would God make Himself evil? Why in the world would He do something like that? Because it would be the only way He could die, and He had to die in order to save us. Sounds radical, I know. There is nothing more radical than the Love of God in Christ.

13. ???There is no greater love than this: that a person would lay down his life for the sake of his friends." John 15:13 (again, my translation of The Peshitta)

Does God The Father have the greatest love possible? Only if He lays down His Life for His friends. Does God The Son have the greatest love possible? Only if He lays down His Life for His friends. Does God The Spirit of Holiness have the greatest love possible? Only if He lays down His Life for His friends. And this they each did at the cross, in the body and Soul of MarYah Yeshua Meshikha, "in Whom dwells ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY." Colossians 2:9

Did Jesus become sin for us. You bet He did! Was He too Holy to touch evil? No, He was too Holy not to touch evil. He was too holy to remain in Heaven; He was too Holy to remain in glory and be worshipped day and night; He was too Holy to remain above us all and keep His hands clean and His garments spotless. He was too Holy to fellowship with saints and angels for eternity. He was too Holy to remain immortal and temptation free. He was too Holy to shield Himself from suffering, want, poverty, pain and tears. He certainly was too Holy to watch a lost world of souls die one by one and remain forever lost and dead. There was only one way to save them, and that was to become infinite Sin Himself- absorbing all the evil the universe could ever muster and throw at Him, and destroy it once for all in the Death of all deaths in His own Person on the cross, killing sin with Himself, and taking sinners out with Him as well :"If The One died for all, then everyone died with Him." 2 Cor. 5:14

And then He arose!

Some may think I am insane. I am proud to say I am! Paul was accused of the same kind of insanity:"Festus cried out with a loud voice, "You are insane, Paul! Much study has made you insane!" 25. Paulus said, "I am not insane, excellent Festus, but I am speaking words of truth and integrity."
10. We are insane because of The Messiah, but you are sensible in The Messiah. We are weak and you are mighty; you are praised and we are despised.1 Cor. 4:10 (my translation)
13. For if we are insane, it is for God, and if we are conventional, it is for you.
14. For the love of The Messiah compels us to reason this: The One died in the place of every person; so then every person died with him.
2 Cor. 5:13-14

I felt compelled by the Love of God to write the above insanity. Thanks for listening!

Many Blessings in our Incomparable Savior LORD Jehovah Christ!

Dave Bauscher
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#20
You know Dave, you've taken your (modern) Baptist theology, and tried to impose it upon ancient Eastern Syriac (sacramental) Christianity.

Modern Baptist theology does NOT fit into that particular mold. Period, zero.

And I am NOT going to get in another nasty fight with you, so don't even go there.

And I DO wonder just why you did NOT have the Eastern P'shitta New Covenant at your disposal, BEFORE you started your translation.

And I also wonder.......since "Jehovah" is a 'ghost word', and is used to keep from having to say, or to write, YHWH (or YHVH, take your pick), that you would use it in what's supposed to be an English version, of the Syriac text of the N.T. ?

Shlama, Albion
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#21
Shlama Akhi Albion,

Nothing I have written above has anything to do with Baptist theology, unless you think Baptists are Universalists; there are very few of those, I think.

I did have access to The Eastern Peshitta; I have had a copy for years which is falling apart at the binding. I bought it about 7 years ago.

"Jehovah" is a "ghost word"? Every printed Hebrew Bible I have ever seen has the YHWH Name pronounced "Yehovah" according to the vowel pointing given. That's where "Jehovah" comes from. The "J" is a common transliteration of the Yodh in the beginning of a name: Yehuda=Jehuda; Yaqob=Jaqob; Yoseph=Joseph, etc.

Blessings,

Dave
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#22
April 22, 2008

Thanks Dave,

So when you translated "Eli, Eli lemana shabak-thani" you chose among the many possible meanings in English to correspond with your undertanding of "Eli, Eli, lema azab-thani" from Psalm 22.

But Jesus did not say Eli, Eli, lema azab-thani, and there may be alternative translations for that also. I'm not sure.

So you chose the rather narrow word 'forsaken" (rather than the equally valid "My God, My God, why have you spared me?" or ???My God, My God , why have you kept me here???? ), but you don't really think Yeshua literally meant it. Is that right?

Otto
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#23
You're welcome Otto,

Quote:So you chose the rather narrow word 'forsaken" (rather than the equally valid "My God, My God, why have you spared me?" or ???My God, My God , why have you kept me here???? ), but you don't really think Yeshua literally meant it. Is that right?

He meant it alright! But I don't believe that is what happened. He was not forsaken. If you consider my last lengthy post to you and Sean, you will see what I believe happened. It has to do with His becoming sin and the sin offering as the atonement for the world.

Nebrak lak Alaha (God bless you),

Dave
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#24
To Dave, death was the curse of the law (deut-28). Thus Christ was made a 'curse' in the sense that He suffered the curse of the law (death) on our behalf.
God did not become evil, 'knowing that you have not been redeemed from your empty works...by corruptible silver and gold, but with the precious blood of the lamb without blemish and without spot, which is Christ'.
Jesus came to save us from our sins, again he was , is and always will be holy,'be holy, as I am holy'. There is no darkness at all in God, He is light ( the epistle of 1 john 1-5),
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#25
Also , Jesus was and is God, how can He forsake himself?
The Father was in him, 'Do you not believe that I am in the father , and the father is in me' John 14-10. ' I and the father are one' john 10-30. Not that I understand much about the godhead.
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#26
Quote:Also , Jesus was and is God, how can He forsake himself?

I never said He was forsaken. I said He became sin, just as the scripture says He became sin. Yes, He was also the sin offering, but this sin offering was The ONE TRUE SIN OFFERING which took all sin unto himself: "Behold the Lamb of God Which takes away the sin of the world." John 1:29
"The LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Isaiah 53:6

He became our sin by taking it unto Himself. You apparently think that diminishes Him and makes Him unholy. I believe this is proof of His supreme Holiness.
He was always giving up what He had and was, from the incarnation and descent from Heavenly glory to the death of the cross. His willingness to become sin and to experience the death of His infinitely Righteous Soul was the ultimate Holiness of Love. You have not addressed this from Isaiah 53:10-12.

You also have ignored my questions to you concerning John 15:13.
Quote:Does God The Father have the greatest love possible? Only if He lays down His Life for His friends. Does God The Son have the greatest love possible? Only if He lays down His Life for His friends. Does God The Spirit of Holiness have the greatest love possible? Only if He lays down His Life for His friends.

Hebrews 9:16 says, "For where there is a testament, it shows the death of him who made it." So I ask you again: Who made the New Covenant?
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jer. 31:31

So YAHWEH had to die!

That is my main point. You say He could not become sin, because that would make Him unholy. I disagree and the scripture plainly states that he did become sin.
Many will object that God cannot die. Yet scripture plainly states that Christ died, and that He is YAHWEH! He died when He became sin, as God is Righteousness. He gave up His righteousness for us.

I see transcendent beauty and Holiness in God's willingness to suffer and give up all that He had and was for us all, that we might Live. I also see His complete victory over sin and death in His resurrection. I see nothing of that in what many call the gospel, in which God remains aloof and untouched by suffering and death and sends someone else (His Son) to suffer and die for us. I cannot see love in that- certainly not the Love of John 15:13 :13. ???There is no greater love than this: that a person would lay down his life for the sake of his friends." (again, my translation of The Peshitta)
If God The Father did not lay down His Life for us, then His Son is superior to Him and God The Father is not Love. But in Yeshua is all the fulness of The Godhead and He is The LIFE of God, so when He was dying, the Godhead was dying.

I know this sounds impossible, but the Love of God must seem impossible, or it cannot be truly the Love of God.

14. And I bow my knees to The Father of Our Lord Yeshua The Messiah,
15. Him from whom every fatherhood is named, that is in Heaven and in Earth,
16. That he would grant you according to the riches of his glory to be confirmed by power in his Spirit, that in your inner person
17. The Messiah may dwell by faith, and in your hearts by love, when your root and your foundation shall be confirmed,
18. That you can discover with all the holy, what is the height and depth and length and breadth,
19. And you may know the magnitude * of the knowledge of the love of The Messiah and you may be filled in all the fullness of God.
20. But to him who is more than almighty to do for us and is greater than what we ask or imagine, according to his power that is active in us,
21. To him be glory by the church in Yeshua The Messiah to all generations of the eternity of eternities. Amen. -Ephesians. 3 (My translation)

Did Jesus become sin for us? You bet He did! Was He too Holy to touch evil? No, He was too Holy not to touch evil. He was too holy to remain in Heaven; He was too Holy to remain in glory and be worshipped day and night; He was too Holy to remain above us all and keep His hands clean and His garments spotless. He was too Holy to fellowship with saints and angels for eternity. He was too Holy to remain immortal and temptation free. He was too Holy to shield Himself from suffering, want, poverty, pain and tears. He certainly was too Holy to watch a lost world of souls die one by one and remain forever lost and dead. There was only one way to save them, and that was to become infinite Sin Himself- absorbing all the evil the universe could ever muster and throw at Him, and destroy it once for all in the Death of all deaths in His own Person on the cross, killing sin with Himself, and taking sinners out with Him as well :"If The One died for all, then everyone died with Him." 2 Cor. 5:14

And then He arose!

Dave
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#27
To Dave, I did not mean to say that you said that jesus was forsaken, I am trying to point out that I believe that this is not a true translation, 'my god, my god, why have you forsaken me' .
Lamsa has a good explanation for this in his introduction.
Jesus took the punishment for our sin, upon himself, I pray that the holy spirit would lead us all into all truth. On the cross jesus was never displeasing to the father, legally he took the punishment for our sin, that want I'm trying to emphasize. That he was a sin offering on the cross. Jesus never become sin, you can not build theology on one verse, which I believe is not correct. Again sin is not tangible, nothing can be made sin. If jesus become sin, he would have been an unacceptable offering to God for the sins of others. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, he is righteous. I acknowledge that Jesus died for us out of love, totally agree with you on that point. God is love, 1 john 4-16.
Isaiah 53-10- says that he was 'an offering for sin'
In the old testament , when offering a sin-offering, the transference of the liability for punishment for the guilt of sin, was now upon the innocent substitute, so Jesus is our substitute. He suffered the penalty in our place, although innocent. The substitute does not become guilty, he assumes the legal liability for the punishment of the guilty party. Jesus remained holy until death and after, lev-6-25.
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#28
The 'godhead was not dying' the body of jesus was dying, and did die on the cross. For 'god was in christ, reconciling the world unto himself '(2 cor-5-19).
' ..being put to death in the flesh, and quickened by the spirit' 1 peter-3-18
' having abolished in His flesh the enmity' eph 2-15
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#29
Shlama Sean,

You wrote:
Quote:I am trying to point out that I believe that this is not a true translation, 'my god, my god, why have you forsaken me' .
Lamsa has a good explanation for this in his introduction.

I have read Lamsa's translation of this and frankly, I think it stinks. We have been wrangling over this on this web site for years now, and you can find the posts written
on the subject which I and others have recently written. I will not get into this again as I have written reams on it if you wish to look it up.

I am tired of hearing that The Messiah's death was merely physical. You have not responded to any of my questions to you. Let's take just one at a time: "Who made the New Covenant, according to the scriptures?"

Dave
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#30
Hi Dave , I did respond to your questions, on God's love, and concerning Isaiah 53-10-12. I don't really want to keep arguing, so I will respect your opinions and probably stop posting concerning this thread.
As far as I know, jesus brought in the new covenant, may god bless you , sean.
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