02-29-2008, 06:07 PM
Shlama Akhi Ryan,
You wrote:
Where did I say God does not punish His enemies? I simply said He does not annihilate them, as Albion said He does. I also do not believe God punishes his enemies without stopping.
You also wrote:
I cannot make sense of that comment. God forgives, that is, He is willing to forgive, but He doesn't!!??
In your own words:"No, its either one or the other."
Eternal hellfire is not eternal forgiveness, nor did I ever say it was. I see a real difference, however, between the meaning of "eternal" and "everlasting".
According to Shlikha Paul, "eternal" means "timeless", or "apart from time",
Eternal torment cannot be "everlasting". Everlasting is "infinite length of time". "Eternal" is without reference to time. The Aramaic NT does not countenance the notion that sinners will be punished without end. D'lalam (eternal) is defined as the opposite of the temporal (time related), so we cannot make eternity into an infinite amount of time; nor can we make an infinite amount of time into eternity. The two are opposite concepts. Eternity is timeless; No amount of piling up of time upon time, or multiplication of time, can transform time into eternity. There is no time in eternity.
In order to avoid the prohibition of theological discussion on the forum, we could focus simply on the meaning of the word "D'lalam" (eternal). I don't believe the "everlasting punishment" position has etymological a leg to stand on. It relies on eternity being infinite time. Paul wrote that it is the opposite- "timelessness". It is also "unseen". That is also the basic meaning of the Hebrew "owlam" -"hidden,secret".
It seems that Christians argue thus: "Punishment of sinners is just, therefore endless punishment is endless justice." More is better; infinitely more is infinitely better, and the more sinners suffer, the better.
And I am being told I am "unfriendly" and "lack the qualities of a leader".
I am not running for office here; I have not entered a popularity contest. I care nothing for winning such contests. I do care what people say about God and His Son. If I see He is being libelled by those who profess to love Him, I become angry and I say something about it. If I become an outcast in the process, I am content to be rejected for His Name's sake.
Notice too that Albion's responses are all ad hominem. He cannot answer the points I made. All he can do is say
Those are all interesting responses, but they are not arguments, simply emotional retorts.
Frankly, I think they say more about Albion than they do about me.
Blessings,
Dave
You wrote:
Quote:Dave, where in the hell do you get the idea that God does not punish his enemies?
Where did I say God does not punish His enemies? I simply said He does not annihilate them, as Albion said He does. I also do not believe God punishes his enemies without stopping.
You also wrote:
Quote:we rarely forgive, such as HE (the only difference being that he is WILLING, but the point is, he still doesnt).
I cannot make sense of that comment. God forgives, that is, He is willing to forgive, but He doesn't!!??
In your own words:"No, its either one or the other."
Eternal hellfire is not eternal forgiveness, nor did I ever say it was. I see a real difference, however, between the meaning of "eternal" and "everlasting".
According to Shlikha Paul, "eternal" means "timeless", or "apart from time",
Quote:2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal (Aramaic=d'zabna-"time related"); but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Eternal torment cannot be "everlasting". Everlasting is "infinite length of time". "Eternal" is without reference to time. The Aramaic NT does not countenance the notion that sinners will be punished without end. D'lalam (eternal) is defined as the opposite of the temporal (time related), so we cannot make eternity into an infinite amount of time; nor can we make an infinite amount of time into eternity. The two are opposite concepts. Eternity is timeless; No amount of piling up of time upon time, or multiplication of time, can transform time into eternity. There is no time in eternity.
In order to avoid the prohibition of theological discussion on the forum, we could focus simply on the meaning of the word "D'lalam" (eternal). I don't believe the "everlasting punishment" position has etymological a leg to stand on. It relies on eternity being infinite time. Paul wrote that it is the opposite- "timelessness". It is also "unseen". That is also the basic meaning of the Hebrew "owlam" -"hidden,secret".
It seems that Christians argue thus: "Punishment of sinners is just, therefore endless punishment is endless justice." More is better; infinitely more is infinitely better, and the more sinners suffer, the better.
And I am being told I am "unfriendly" and "lack the qualities of a leader".
I am not running for office here; I have not entered a popularity contest. I care nothing for winning such contests. I do care what people say about God and His Son. If I see He is being libelled by those who profess to love Him, I become angry and I say something about it. If I become an outcast in the process, I am content to be rejected for His Name's sake.
Notice too that Albion's responses are all ad hominem. He cannot answer the points I made. All he can do is say
Quote:I would NOT want him for a Pastor.
I would NOT want him to officiate at any wedding of my children.
I would NOT want him for a friend.
His ideas of Messiah and Salvation are warped.
Those are all interesting responses, but they are not arguments, simply emotional retorts.
Frankly, I think they say more about Albion than they do about me.
Blessings,
Dave