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For Andrew Gabriel Roth
#1
Shlama Andrew,

I want to instill in you how much that your friends here long for Spring to come, cause with the Spring warmness, will come MARI/P.E.A.C.E. ! <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) -->

I have a real suggestion that MIGHT help people who are NOT used to reading Interlinears.

I take absolutely ZERO credit for this, because it comes from The Way International Aramaic/English Interlinear New Testament.

It use's a NUMBERED sentence structure kinda like this Andrew:

"I (1)

like (3)

feel (2)

a (5)

I'm (4)

Brother (6)

you, (8)

to ( 7)

and (9)

Paul". (12)

to (10)

akhan (11)


Now, as you see in English, this isn't NEEDED, but it must be, IN SYRIAC.

Because this is HOW this "Assyrian translation team" translated The Way's Interlinear translation.

Now, someone who DOESN'T NEED this help, and who is already able to read Syriac, this just might get in their way......BUT TO PEOPLE LIKE ME, it has been the greatest help in reading the text correctly, and in the right word order, it's just been *GREAT*!

I WISH that Paul (Younan) would edit HIS Peshitta Interlinear in this manner too, so I'd stopped getting lost in it, in fact. <!-- sConfusedigh: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/sigh.gif" alt="Confusedigh:" title="Sigh" /><!-- sConfusedigh: -->

Andrew, I know that this IS ASKING A LOT, but if there is still time to do this, it would immensely HELP people who are a little slow in reading from Interlinear's, like myself.

I've thought on this A LOT lately, I THINK that I remember you saying that MARI/P.E.A.C.E.
is already AT THE PRINTER'S.

I would have asked you this literally months ago, but I only got The Way's Interlinear in November (2007), and I'm only NOW getting really familiar with it.

I feel in fact, that MarYah has opened up a whole 'nother world with this Translation for me, it's just like discovering hidden spiritual treasure. And I don't mean silver or gold, I'm NOT a materialist, but I DO Love the Words of Alaha and His Son!

I don't THINK that this would be plagiarism in ANY WAY Andrew. You would NOT be copying someone else's work, but merely making your OWN WORK easier to read!

I know that I've already asked quite a lot from you, and maybe I've even tried in a friendly way, to prod you, and your publishers along, so we would have your work SOONER.

This is SELFISH on my part, and I repent for THAT, but if I could possibly ask for ONE MORE FAVOR?

What do you THINK Andrew?

Waiting for your reply.

Shlama in Yeshua, Albion
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#2
Albion Wrote:I WISH that Paul (Younan) would edit HIS Peshitta Interlinear in this manner too, so I'd stopped getting lost in it, in fact. <!-- sConfusedigh: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/sigh.gif" alt="Confusedigh:" title="Sigh" /><!-- sConfusedigh: -->

Man, they had already sent me a warning one time to put up a copyright statement on the Lexicon because underneath the engine it used the raw data from their work. So I quickly put up that copyright notice.

Last thing I want to do is copy their "numbering" idea, although I think that already exists in a number of Hebrew and Greek interlinear texts, so I don't think it's something they invented.

There's something special about reading the text in the original order, though. Sometimes it winds up being far more interesting in English. Read the last part of Luqa 7 in the interlinear. You can see how King James English came about! <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
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#3
There's another good system that I've seen. It was used in Artscroll's Schottenstein Edition of the Psalms. They translated phrase-by-phrase. It is actually a formal equivalence translation, but the English under the Hebrew is separated by phrases, rather than individual words.

Shalom,
Dawid
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#4
Shlama Dawid,

I don't know if you've ever read 'Rotherham's Emphasized Bible' or not, but it's a phrase by phrase Bible also.

Peace, Albion






Dawid Wrote:There's another good system that I've seen. It was used in Artscroll's Schottenstein Edition of the Psalms. They translated phrase-by-phrase. It is actually a formal equivalence translation, but the English under the Hebrew is separated by phrases, rather than individual words.

Shalom,
Dawid
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#5
Shlama Paul,

As you know, I've asked probably twice about their "translation team", but I find this wee bit of history quite interesting.

Was it someone that actually had a hand in the Translation that wrote to you Paul?

I'm a real believer in writing down history, and I think that the reader's of their Interlinear have A RIGHT to know the member's of their Translation team.

But I may NEVER really find out, and I guess that I need to come to peace with this fact.

But if you'd like to tell me in a PM, I'd still LOVE to know Paul.

Shlama, Albion



Paul Younan Wrote:
Albion Wrote:I WISH that Paul (Younan) would edit HIS Peshitta Interlinear in this manner too, so I'd stopped getting lost in it, in fact. <!-- sConfusedigh: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/sigh.gif" alt="Confusedigh:" title="Sigh" /><!-- sConfusedigh: -->

Man, they had already sent me a warning one time to put up a copyright statement on the Lexicon because underneath the engine it used the raw data from their work. So I quickly put up that copyright notice.

Last thing I want to do is copy their "numbering" idea, although I think that already exists in a number of Hebrew and Greek interlinear texts, so I don't think it's something they invented.

There's something special about reading the text in the original order, though. Sometimes it winds up being far more interesting in English. Read the last part of Luqa 7 in the interlinear. You can see how King James English came about! <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
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#6
Shlama Akhi Albion and everyone else,

Akhi Albion, yes, this is asking way too much of me, especially this late in the game. However, I ask your forebearance and faith for a bit longer, because I have taken into account non-Aramaic speakers in Mari/PEACE in other ways. But, like Paul Younan, I am very much aware of copyright issues with approaching the methodology of the Way International, and for other reasons that I will not get into here, I really don't want to go in their direction anyway. Even if I had time to make such a sweeping change at the last minute, I would not wish to do so.

Having said that, let me explain a little bit about what I have done.

1) I have included tools to show clearly the relationship between ktav ashurri (Hebrew), estrangela and Latin alphabets. To these I have added a key to understanding the vowel markings as well, enabling anyone who is interested enough to make basic progress in approximating the reading of the Aramaic text. All of these underlying tools match up with and are aided by the Estrangela Midyat font, which is basically western vowel pointing combined with Eastern pronunciation of those vowels in a clear to read Estrangela letter format.

2) While the final layout is going through tweaking at this moment, I can tell you that the Aramaic and English text will match up page for page and as precisely line by line as it possibly can. But I don't believe the annotated word order approach is helpful, because it is too much of an easy way out. This is a teaching diglot Akhi. It is meant to meet people where they are but not keep them there. It is meant to gently encourage and challenge, and while informing improve Aramaic skills on the part of the reader. When the reader delves into page after page of this interlinear on both languages, the Aramaic word patterns and expressions become very clear, and I would rather show this Aramaic structure to have a western reader acquire increasing understanding with repeated use than to "dumb down" for lack of a better term and retrofit the Aramaic to where the English reader is upon first read. While I mostly agree with Paul Younan on the utility of showing original word order even in English, I don't think this should be done in places where clarity can be sacrificed, and so not being able to do it universally one way, it must be universally the other way, but with clarifications for the reader at every conceivable point. So while I challenge English readers to be open to the Aramaic, I don't want their first exposure to it to bring them into a syntactical gehenna, where they can't tell how one word is modifying another in a sentence.

3) In general Akhi Albion, you just need to trust me that I have formulated Mari/PEACE for much the goals you are touching on, but the methods are just different. The people who have been assisting me in non-translational issues are very keen and knowledgeable on how to keep the diglot firmly in the grasp of the common person. They have in turn had folks look at the text who have little to no Hebrew/Aramaic training to make sure Mari/PEACE can be well understood.

4) If all else fails in this regard, there are almost 1400 detailed footnotes and 200 pages of essays and articles that deal with the most difficult Aramaic concepts to bring into understandable English. It would be like purchasing a Lamsa NT that had his books on Aramaic meanings appended to the back, along with "real time" notes on how to understand idioms and other odd figures of speech.

5) While I have strived mightily to make Mari/PEACE a potent introduction to Aramaic, I have also been careful to know when to stop. Mari/PEACE is no substitute for a sound and comprehensive Aramaic/Syriac Grammar. It is not meant to have all the definitions of a thesaurus/dictionary like Payne Smith or Jastrow's. Rather, the intention is to give the reader, should they wish it, the ability to begin reading the text for themselves and from there the ability to research other matters on their own. To that end, they need a lot of clarity on the FRONT END but this must be balanced with not making the English itself too alien or fragmented. The English needs to flow in the way we best understand it, but it also needs to be enhanced with detailed Aramaic notes on original intent. How well Mari/PEACE achieves this balance I of course leave to the good judgment of others. But that's what I am shooting for.

6) Finally, you will have to also take my word on the fact that other detailed helps, such as a detailed comparison of the Khabouris with the 1905 and the annotation of all Eastern/Western variants, allow the reader unprecedented access into the Aramaic mindset behind the creation of the Peshitta text as well as how others tried to alter it over the centuries. That is why I view also the restoration of the Eastern readings in the Aramaic and English as so key to the overall success of the diglot.

Hope this helps and sorry if I have disappointed you here. I am sure you understand the volume of ideas I get all the time on this project and that my ability to implement all of them at every stage of the project is extremely limited. Never is this more true than at the end, which is right now. I did say in November that I thought the entire text would be off to the printers by the end of 2007, but we got a bit delayed due to many personal challenges that hit my team at the last minute. Even so, we are s till on track for the overall deadline. I am waiting for one more block of appendix text to edit before the universal edit comes, from which point the text is 100% fixed and off to be bound.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
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#7
Shlama,

While I agree that a logical order, rather than literal order would be helpful, that method can also cause some confusion for new comers to Peshitta. Perhaps a companion handbook that would have such a text would be more appropriate.

Another thing to bear in mind, and somewhat related to the discussion, if you will, is the issue of patents on design and layout. I have no idea how MARI translation and design/layout is going to be, but in researching the best layout for an interlinear for myself, I found that one is actually patented! <!-- s:rockedover: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/rockdover.gif" alt=":rockedover:" title="Rocked Over" /><!-- s:rockedover: -->

Check this out

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6778950.html">http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6778950.html</a><!-- m -->
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#8
A patented interlinear format? That's crazy. It appears that it is the form that Green's interlinear used. Wow. Interesting.
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#9
Dear Andrew,

Thanks for answering my post in such a quick and completely through manner!

WOW, I'm even more eager NOW, than I was before, for MARI/P.E.A.C.E. !!

So, Andrew your thinking maybe around Spring time still for the publication of MARI ?

I don't ever remember being so wound up and waiting like a little kid for his first bicycle (perhaps that's not really a great example, but you know what I mean!).

Now, I'm counting the days till publication!

Thanks Andrew! Albion
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#10
Shlama Akhi Albion and all--

With respect to the debate about which format works, basically what I have found is that no one approach is perfect. Therefore, the best thing I can do I believe is to offer a variety of helpful tools that will hopefully address the different methods and comprehension strategies that people use. Some of us are visual thinkers and others are word-based. My wife is the former and I am the latter, for example. Also some like to look word for word and line by line in the text and others like a detailed study separated and in the back part. So, I have tried to bring the best of all strategies with appendices, essays, and real-time footnotes. What works for one person may not for another, but at least the buffet line is there. How you help yourself to those choices on the line is of course up to you.

I know with perfect faith that everyone here is at least curious about this diglot and how it may or may not resemble Paul or David's works. I can only say that even I don't know that answer fully, and what I believe to be true for myself may not be true for others. I also know that some things that people will like about say Paul's approach they may not like in Mari, and vice versa and that everyone is waiting to judge it when it actually here and not in advance.

Finally, please realize that Mari/PEACE is not the end of my research but in a way just the beginning. We have received a lot of requests for how different formats in the future--including the electronic variety, might aid folks in further manipulating the text to their best comprehension. There was a time when I did not see it that way and thought this edition was IT, but then my publisher said, "Andrew, I am creating a publishing company just for you and for Shali (our proofreader), so I hope you have a lot more books in you." I'm like, thanks for the no-pressure approach there. But getting back to the idea of future editions and approaches, while I am leaving a lot of that decision making to my publisher, I am nonetheless very aware that different approaches will work for different people. I certainly can't ignore the idea that excellent feedback can lead to improvements and the like.

In sum, I know this has been a long wait for many of you, but I ask you to realize that I have been waiting too in a way--for 5+ years--to get this done. I know I did not indicate that directly in the past, simply because for the longest time I was slowly incorporating these readings into my books, to answer people's confidential inquiries and for some very private studies that I was doing. But I am happy that the wait is almost over, and I can only pray that the long waiting of so many will be justifed by the final product.

And finally, to Akhi Albion, I ask you not to worry about your "prodding" for the simple reason that even I could not move Mari/PEACE along faster when I wanted to. But every delay Mari/PEACE got was for a purpose. In one such delay I re-checked the Aramaic and included a Khabouris-1905 comparison that I now view as critical. In other delays, with "nothing" to do I added 200 footnotes that are some of the best work I have ever done. That was funny, because it was a way of "punishing" my publisher, to say, "I have not seen X from you so here's something else to work on." He told me later that it was the best thing I could have done to keep him inspired while he went through some difficulties of his own. Another delay produced my calendar code study, which I have mentioned before. Whatever the world has thrown at me or other members of the MARI/PEACE team, Master YHWH has made sure that the obstacles were made and turned into good purpose for His Kingdom. And since this may be my only shot to do this, I want it done right. So if Mari/PEACE itself is immune to MY wanting it to be done sooner, I am also immune to this from others, since in a way it is out of my hands.

Again, hope this helps and I am grateful to all current and future feedback on this matter. We are still on pace for Spring release, preferably around Pesach.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
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#11
Shlama Andrew,

You know, folks should'nt spend their time wondering if your (and ALL of those who are working with you) Translation is going to resemble Paul's or Dave's Translations.

The ONE thing that I know, that I'm sure of, is that MarYah has made each of us as different as snowflakes in our wonder, and in our own uniqueness.

How could your Translation be like Paul's or Dave's Translation, since you too are unique as an indivdual snowflake?

I'm not really sure of much at 56 years of age, but I am sure of THAT.

Your friend, Albion
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#12
Albion Wrote:Was it someone that actually had a hand in the Translation that wrote to you Paul

No, it was just a letter from an attorney who represented them at the time.

A bit of history: when I first created the Lexical search on the "Tools" section, I used SEDRA which is a relational database created by Dr. George Kiraz. At the time, I did not realize that the data behind SEDRA actually was compiled by The Way International's team. So I thanked Dr. Kiraz in a footnote, which can still be found there:

Quote:This work makes use of the Syriac Electronic Data Retrieval Archive (SEDRA) by George A. Kiraz, distributed by the Syriac Computing Institute. For additional information on the structure of the Database, see G. Kiraz, 'Automatic Concordance Generation of Syriac Texts', in VI Symposium Syriacum 1992, ed. R. Lavenant, Orientalia Christiana Analecta 247, Rome, 1994.

So I though that was good enough.

Then, a couple of years later, Dr. Kiraz notified me that the data in SEDRA belonged to The Way, so I then included this footnote, which is still there today:

Quote: We thank The Way International Research Team (American Christian Press, New Knoxville, Ohio) for their monumental 15 year effort in compiling the data contained within this Aramaic Lexicon.

Well, apparently that caught someone's attention at The WAY, and I received a certified letter in the mail from their attorney who said, essentially, that thanking them for their "monumental effort" wasn't good enough, and that basically they would grant me a limited license to use the data as long as a copyright statement was placed on the top part of the Lexicon search.

So there you have it.....no numbering system or anything else that may resemble their Interlinear translation lest I receive another frightening letter. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->
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#13
Shlama Paul,

You know you seem to be as curious as I am. You also seem to believe in the power of history, if I correctly understand the things that you've shared about The Assyrian Church of the East.

If your Priest, Father Klutz, actually KNEW who the translators were for 'The Way International Aramaic/English Interlinear' (as he indicated that he did, in a personal letter to me), might you ASK HIM about this pertinent piece of history?

And maybe find out if it really WAS "a team of Assyrian translators", and did Father Klutz actually KNOW them?

I know that I've asked you this probably two or three times, so, this will be the LAST time that I ask this, I PROMISE.

And one last thing here Paul.

If The Way Int. was so 'quick on the draw' with YOU here at Peshitta.org, why do you feel that they have NOT sued James Trimm, for plagiarism??

I'd like to hear your take on that, too.

Shlama, Albion
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#14
I will ask Qasha (Elder) Klutz and let you know if he remembers anyones name.

I'm not aware of any link of Trimm's HRV translation to the Way's, is there a connection? I own a copy of the Way's Interlinear, but not of Trimms HRV - so I can't tell really if there's any similarity.
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#15
Akhi Albion,

I just got off the phone with Qasha Klutz, and to his knowledge no Assyrians were involved in the Way's translation team. At least not any from the CoE that he's aware of.

He did bring to my attention, which is true now that I'm paging through the text, that this is the western text and not the eastern.
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