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Akhi Dawid,
Let's examine the language of Meshikha, who told the little girl ("Talitha") to rise up ("Qumi"). Now, I'm sure you are aware that the root "Qum" ("arise") is shared between Hebrew and Aramaic.
So that leaves us with only "Talitha" to be a tie-breaker, when trying to determine whether he spoke to Jairus' daughter in Hebrew or in Aramaic.
Is "Talitha" a Hebrew word, or an Aramaic word?
In your previous posts, you attempted to demonstrate that Hebrew was alive and well in the 1st century by pointing out that Mishnaic Hebrew was a living vernacular of the people at the time, rather than a learned language of the religiously trained.
So now, allow me to demonstrate how Mishnaic Hebrew defines the 3 terms commonly used for a female (minor, maiden, and woman) (text from Ketubot, 40b, Mishna)
???? ???????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????"?? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???????? ???? ???? ?????? ???????? ???? ?????? ???????? ???? ???? ?????? ???????? ???? ?????? ?????????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??????
Translation:
Anywhere there is a sale there is no fine, and anywhere there is a fine, there is no sale.
A female minor {katana} has a sale and does not have a fine.
A maiden {naarah} has a fine and does not have a sale.
A woman {bogeret) has neither sale nor fine.
Soooo, then....the terms used in Mishnaic Hebrew are:
(a) Katana ("minor")
(b) Naarah ("maiden")
© Bogeret ("woman"...actually, any girl aged 12+ years)
If the language of Meshikha was Mishnaic Hebrew, or Biblical Hebrew for that matter, why did he choose the word "Talitha" instead of one of the options available above? Isn't "Talitha" the feminine of the Aramaic "Talia" (little boy?)
Eagerly awaiting your answer.
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Paul Younan Wrote:???? ???????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????"?? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???????? ???? ???? ?????? ???????? ???? ?????? ???????? ???? ???? ?????? ???????? ???? ?????? ?????????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??????
Sorry to butt in and be such a stickler, khonee, but I think you missed a mem sofit (????"??) in there. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->
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Dang, it's late. Good catch. <!-- s  --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/wink1.gif" alt=" " title="Wink" /><!-- s -->
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Mr. Younan, I have already explained why there is Aramaic in the Greek translations. You did not understand it. I am tired. I am ill. I don't feel like continuing this conversation just to beat my head up against a brick wall some more. Frankly, I am not intelligent enough or enough of a scholar to debate you, let alone the rest of the board.
Shalom,
Dawid
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May God bless you Akhi, and heal you quickly. Be well.
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Paul Younan Wrote:May God bless you Akhi, and heal you quickly. Be well. Todah rabbah.
Shalom,
Dawid
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Akhi Dawid,
In the Gospels, even the Greek versions record that Meshikha renamed Shimon to "Keepa", which is of course Aramaic for "Rock."
If He spoke in Hebrew, why didn't he use words found in Mishnaic Hebrew for "rock", such as "Aven", "Tsur" or "Sela"?
From the Mishnah:
Quote:???Baruch hatsur tamim po???alo,??? ???Blessed is the Rock whose work is perfect.???
Why an Aramaic name for something so simple as a rock, for which there existed at least 3 perfectly good Hebrew words?
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It has never been my contention that only Hebrew was spoken, but that both Hebrew and Aramaic were spoken at the time. It may well be that in this case Aramaic was being spoken.
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Dawid Wrote:It has never been my contention that only Hebrew was spoken, but that both Hebrew and Aramaic were spoken at the time. It may well be that in this case Aramaic was being spoken.
Well then, absent any evidence that Yeshua said anything that could only have been Hebrew, may we proceed with our studies here....or are we wasting our time?
If anything was originally written in Hebrew, then there's only one reality that we face: we no longer have the original words of Meshikha or the NT writers, and are in the same boat as the Greeks. The original has been lost for the last 2,000 years and we've been wasting our time here with Aramaic.
Isn't that what THEY want us to believe?
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Paul Younan Wrote:Dawid Wrote:It has never been my contention that only Hebrew was spoken, but that both Hebrew and Aramaic were spoken at the time. It may well be that in this case Aramaic was being spoken.
Well then, absent any evidence that Yeshua said anything that could only have been Hebrew, may we proceed with our studies here....or are we wasting our time?
If anything was originally written in Hebrew, then there's only one reality that we face: we no longer have the original words of Meshikha or the NT writers, and are in the same boat as the Greeks. The original has been lost for the last 2,000 years and we've been wasting our time here with Aramaic.
Isn't that what THEY want us to believe? Ooh...they, Mr. Younan? <!-- s:lookround: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/lookround.gif" alt=":lookround:" title="Look Round" /><!-- s:lookround: --> You mean the notorious them?!?! *looks all around and drops his voice to a whisper* did you hear that from the boogieman? <!-- s  --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/rolleyes.gif" alt=" " title="Roll Eyes" /><!-- s -->
I've already gone over the grammar. I think that, based on Biblical Hebrew, we can be certain that the grammatical forms we observed in the Peshitta are not original to Aramaic and that the Aramaic community probably received them from the Peshitta, rather than vice versa.
Of course we no longer have the original words of Mashiakh, well...per se. We are not exactly in the same boat as the Greeks. We can be more sure when using the Peshitta because Aramaic is closer to Hebrew and so it more closely preserves the original. The Peshitta also probably preserves the originals of most of the letters, at least.
Shalom,
Dawid
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Wullah, the Ishmaelites are right to laugh at the history of Christian texts if all these things you are saying are true Dawid.... <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->
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Paul Younan Wrote:Wullah, the Ishmaelites are right to laugh at the history of Christian texts if all these things you are saying are true Dawid.... <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: --> Hardly. At least the text of the 'edot wasn't standardized and then all variants burnt, and then someone didn't make the claim that all that was left was original, and it must be because there are no variants. That is far more laughable.
Shalom,
Dawid
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Dawid Wrote:It has never been my contention that only Hebrew was spoken, but that both Hebrew and Aramaic were spoken at the time. It may well be that in this case Aramaic was being spoken.
OK Akh, you've made it abundantly clear that you believe Meshikha spoke both Hebrew and Aramaic.
Now, a very specific question:
I've pointed out two instances where Meshikha's speech could only be Aramaic (Talitha and Keepa, there's more but we'll leave it at that for now), and I have documented the Hebrew cognates of those terms from the Mishnah....which He didn't use, but which He could have if He wanted to.
Now, please point me to something He said that could only have been in Hebrew, and you will have made your point. I will concede that He preached in both languages.
PS - Please, for the sake of sanity, do not bring up the fact that He read from the scroll of Isaiah in the Synagogue. I could do that. I can read Hebrew along with the best of them. But, I can't speak Hebrew as an everyday vernacular. I can't think in it. I can't compose anything in it except for very basic speech.
Some Muslims today in Malaysia have memorized the entire Quran, can recite it by heart just as well as any native Arabic speaker, their pronunciation is perfect....but they can't converse in Arabic. It's not a vernacular language to them.
Reading a language...even writing in that language, can be done without being able to fluently speak it as an everyday tongue.
PSS - I fully realize, being an Orthodox Christian and all, that the Hebrew language in Isaiah was authored by Meshikha Himself. It's not my contention that Meshikha couldn't speak Hebrew in the 1st century, as He did when He dictated those very words to Isaiah. My inquiry revolves around what language He preached in in the 1st century, not during Moses' lifetime. Realizing that Meshikha could have spoken Navajo or English if He wanted to really freak the locals out, I just want to see some evidence that He delivered the Beatitudes in Hebrew, for instance. Real evidence.
Obviously, there's no text to point to. So point me to the grammar in either the Aramaic text or the Greek text that suggests an underlying Hebrew substratum.
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I have already pointed out to you Hebrew grammatical forms in the Peshitta that did not exist in Biblical Aramaic. Based on these it appears that Hebrew forms leaked into Syriac through the Peshitta, not that the Peshitta has these forms because they are Syriac.
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Dawid Wrote:I have already pointed out to you Hebrew grammatical forms in the Peshitta that did not exist in Biblical Aramaic. Based on these it appears that Hebrew forms leaked into Syriac through the Peshitta, not that the Peshitta has these forms because they are Syriac.
You mean the two examples I've already demonstrated are extremely common in even Modern Aramaic? And the one for which the Peshitta didn't gloss?
THOSE are the examples?
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