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"Losing Jesus' Language"
#1
Well I got this article from a Christianity Today, Church History news letter. Most of the stuff published I'm not that interested in. But they occasionally write some things like this that I'm interested in.



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#2
Ooze I read that article and it reminded me of some things I was thinking about today.

A couple months ago I wondered in my mind why we did not see God troops using any sort of syriac bible. Why did God have his born-again Spirit-filled people use the greek NT instead of another language? If this was a long kept secret, why was He not motivating them towards it?

I only recently seem to have understood this, or at least what God seems to have related to me.

Hebrew is of Israel.
Aramaic is of Babylon.

Babylon symbolized a lot of bad stuff in the OT, a lot of stuff I have yet to study about. One of the things it did symbolize was captivity, and therein was an answer for me. The only people I seen or heard about using any sort of syriac/aramaic bible seems to be the messianic judaizers.

These people preach a different way then the fundamentalists, one of unity between jews and christians without salvation. No justification by faith and santification, just a renewed openness towards the law that Jesus fulfilled and removed His chosen people away from.

Again, therein was another answer, captivity. Here we had a number of people who wanted to live by the very things that Jesus broke them away from. They seem to value the respect of persons that Jesus hated, along with the traditions of mankind.



For me Ooze, if the aramaic language and it's dialects dies out, it would be because God would rather see it die. Hebrew thrives in Israel, and is growing everyday. Obviously, God does bless that language.
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#3
LOVING JESUS' LANGUAGE

Quote: from Christianity Today's article
Persecution of Assyrians during the past several centuries has centered around their Christianity, not their ethnicity. It is only in the 19th and 20th centuries that ethnicity has come to play a role in the Middle East as a source of friction.

Records from the 19th century are plentiful and clear: Islamic governments treated all "people of the Book" as tolerated second-class citizens. The Assyrians were subjected to poll taxes levied against non-Muslims and the oppressive feudal system prevalent in the Middle East, which combined to keep the Assyrians poor and starving.



The Assyrian Christians are truly blessed by God. They have kept the faith and fought the good fight for centuries.

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:10 KJV)


Christians in Babylon have been blessed for nearly 1400 years now. Their homeland was invaded by Caliph Umar in 636A.D.

"Blessed are ye when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in like manner did their fathers unto the prophets." [Luke 6:22-23]


Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. (1 Peter 4:12-13)


Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.
(2 Timothy 3:12)


While many people in the Middle East converted to Islam after the invasion of the Arab Muslims out of fear of persecution and paying heavy taxes because they had "If you can't beat them, join them" attitude, the Assyrian Christians have followed Apostle Paul's attitude - I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith (2 Timothy 4:7)

Endure hardship with us like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. (2 Timothy 2:3)

and take heed to Jesus' warning :

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28 )


How many of us in English speaking world today are enduring hardship like a good soldier of Christ Jesus? Looking at my own hardship in life, I found that it is nothing if compared to those Christians who are facing persecution for their faith.


Quote:from Christianity Today's article

Can you maintain it (i.e. Aramaic) in America?

We have social institutions and church institutions that teach and propagate the language. One of the problems we have is that some churches insist that the vernacular should not be written [for services], and that the only language should be Syriac, which died out as a spoken language in the 14th century. Other churches, the Chaldean and the Church of the East, pushed for the vernacular. Using the vernacular means the church, when it teaches the language, teaches the vernacular. That helps to preserve the language.

Let us all who love the teachings of our Lord Yeshu' love the language that He once spoked to his disciples - Aramaic. Let us not hate it. I am sure many of us here (and elsewhere) who love the Word of God took the trouble to learn Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, because we love the Word of God.

If we wanted to benefit ourselves and gain materially in this world, we would have studied more popular languages like English, Chinese, Spanish, French, German, etc (or programming languages like C, C++, C#, Java, Visual Basic, Perl, Javascript, etc ) so that we can get better job or have a better resume instead of studying the language spoken by our Lord and His first disciples that is considered dead by certain people.



Shlama to all!
One of the first owners of the facsimile of <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0802837867/ref=nosim/ultimyourulti-20"><b>Codex Leningrad</b></a>
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#4
Hello Dan,

I know that you are throwing up scripture left and right to justify this particular sect of people, but let me introduce a principle that God follows:

Take away the first to establish the second.

He does this unto His chosen people all the time, he will take away something of the old to give you something new that is considerably better just because He loves you and wants to.

That happens to His chosen people, those who are His and blessed because of that fact. The whole bible speaks of that principle.

Do we see this happening here with these people? The answer is no.

Do we see this happening to the Jewish people at this time? The answer is no.

"I looked for a man to stand in the gap, but found none." Meaning, there is no one to stop the onslaught that God would have stopped, if one of His people were there to stand in the gap with Prayer to move His hand in judgement.


I didn't say what I said to just anger you, it's an observation, a look at the overall aspect involved. The biggest question from you and others should be, "why is this allowed to happen?"

God is of life, not death.

If you wish to believe that God will bring you into the fold and give you all these good things He talks about to just throw you to the dogs to be butchered at will, well,....... you and I are worshipping a different God, and you have an entirely different understanding and experience from mine.
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#5
Dave,

We are indeed worshipping a different God. I worship the God who became Incarnate of a daughter of Adam, and Who during His Incarnation chose to speak that evil "language of Babylon" - Aramaic. (If you weren't so uneducated about the topic, you would have realized that Akkadian, and not Aramaic, was the language of Babylon - but never mind.)

You also say Hebrew is blessed because it is being used in Israel today. God bless it, indeed. It was totally a dead language, a liturgical language, for nearly 2,000 before the *modern* version of it was created. Keep in mind, the *modern* vernacular spoken in Israel is *not* Biblical Hebrew - anywhere near resembling anything Moses would understand. It also uses the "Assyrian" script - another evil people who should have died out a long time ago. Like those Germans, God curse them. And anyone else today, too, who has ancestors who sinned even up to 3,000 years ago! Hopefully, you are excluded from that category.

Hebrew died out for 2,000 years. Aramaic did not - it is still spoken today in an unbroken chain that has lasted at least 4,000 years. So there. <!-- sTongue --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/poketoungeb.gif" alt="Tongue" title="Poke Tounge" /><!-- sTongue -->

But never mind - go on about your Greek and how the majority of Christians today use it. If you were born between the 1st and 14th centuries, the majority of Christians used the Aramaic.

These Christians, even till today, have suffered for their faith more than you ever can imagine in your comfort here in the west. Congratulations on minimizing their stand for their faith, a faith you can never even fathom.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#6
Dave Wrote:Hello Dan,

I know that you are throwing up scripture left and right to justify this particular sect of people ...

Do we see this happening here with these people? The answer is no...

If you wish to believe that God will bring you into the fold and give you all these good things He talks about to just throw you to the dogs to be butchered at will, well,....... you and I are worshipping a different God, and you have an entirely different understanding and experience from mine.


Dear Dave,

Again and again you are speaking in this forum as though that you are the only one here who knows God. Others don't. You are the only one loved by God. You are the only one who understand the Bible. Others don't. You are the only one who have the Holy Spirit. Others don't.

If anyone disagrees with you then they must be in the wrong. You are the absolute authority here. If any text of the Bible is perceived to contradict your opinions then the text of the Bible must be in the wrong. Not you.

Your personal opinions (that you attribute to the Holy Spirit) are more valuable than the text of the Bible. Any Christian who disagrees with your "Azusa Street" must be in the wrong. You are acting as though that there were no Christians before your "Azusa Street." You fail to see that don't you?

My response to oozeaddai's post had nothing to do with your earlier post. It is meant to be an encouragement for all to love the language spoken by our Lord. There are certain things that you know better than others and there are also certain things that you don't. So why are you trying to find fault with others all the time? Why don't you try to understand other's opinions instead of just taking every opportunity to refute others all the time? Then again, you fail to see that don't you?

Dave Wrote:The biggest question from you and others should be, "why is this allowed to happen?"

Why must you assume that others' biggest question should be in accordance to your "biggest question"? You must always remember that you are not the truth here. It is okay for people to have different opinions than yours. No two humans believe alike and think alike all the time. Everyone has different level of knowledge and personal experiences. Your understanding on certain matters depends on the level of knowledge and personal experiences that you have. Therefore, do not belittle the knowledge and experiences of others.

"why is this allowed to happen?"
Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. (2 Timothy 3:12)

There is Only One God to be worshipped. Just because "this particular sect of people" not so loved by you because they are not as prosperous as you or whatever ideal you have in mind regarding how God's chosen people should be - it doesn't make them lesser Christian than you.

I am not "throwing up scripture left and right to justify this particular sect of people." My admiration for "this particular sect of people" is that they have endured persecution and discrimination for centuries. Probably to you they are not Christians (or lesser/inferior Christian than you). I don't know what you are thinking. Because I am not you. If you are right then their faith and endurance are worthless. It would be better for them to convert to Islam, because to you they are no difference. Then once again, you fail to see that don't you?

Dave Wrote:Do we see this happening here with these people? The answer is no.

Do you see the verses that I was "throwing up" happening to your people?
Do you see the verses that I was "throwing up" happening to you? It is not for me to answer here. You can answer it yourself.


Dave Wrote:If you wish to believe that God will bring you into the fold and give you all these good things He talks about to just throw you to the dogs to be butchered at will, well,....... you and I are worshipping a different God, and you have an entirely different understanding and experience from mine.


Dave, why don't you just take some time to examine your 417 posts? How many times did you try to find fault with others? Whether we are thrown to the dogs to be butchered or prosperous materially like many Americans it is not for us to decide. What we can decide is to thank God when we are prosperous and rejoice when we are suffering.

So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good. (1 Peter 4:19)

There is Only One God to be worshipped. If you do not desire to worship God in times of trouble then probably you should ask yourself whether you are just a fairweather friend to Jesus Christ.




Peace to you Dave,

Dan
One of the first owners of the facsimile of <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0802837867/ref=nosim/ultimyourulti-20"><b>Codex Leningrad</b></a>
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#7
Shlama Akhi Dan,

Maran instructed us, in very clear words, that those who choose to follow Him will suffer just like he suffered and would be persecuted just like He was persecuted. He told us we would be whipped, thrown in prison and killed for our Faith.

I guess that makes the Assyrians REAL Christians, and Dave's "people" not - right?

O no, wait a minute. Dave's gonna hear those female voices of the "spirit" again and tell us that we're all wrong. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
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#8
And one other thing, Dave:

The Church of the East built the largest community of believers for the first 1,400 years without the help of your "Greek" text. 80 million believers all across Asia.

And throughout all that time, they never once had a Constantine to "protect" them from the "Romans" who wanted to throw them to the lions. (in our case, it was the Persians, of course)

You have it easy, bud. You have had it easy for the last 1,700 years since that mass-murderer Constantine made your "sect" the "official" one. Before then, you were thrown to the dogs, too.

Since then, there has been no more bloody a force on the face of the planet, of which Islam can't even compare, than your "Western Christianity." The most murderous and oppressive of all religions of all time. Period.

At least when WE converted the millions, we did not come in with an army to do so. That wasn't "JEEZUS'" way, now was it? Thank GOD we never had a Constantine - otherwise we would have blood on our hands, in the name of JEEZUS, like you do.

He said the world would hate us because it hated Him. He said we would be persecuted for our faith.

When's the last time YOUR family shed a drop of blood....for "Christos", Dave?

Now sit back and feel like the little man you are.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
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#9
Akhi Dan,

Dave feels justified in calling Babylon "evil" and somehow insinuating that we, their descendants, are cursed because of the sins committed there 3,000 years ago.

The Assyrians took the Israelites captive, yes. God told us to do it - remember? The Israelites sinned, and they were punished.

It's too bad those evil Assyrians weren't there just 60 YEARS ago in "Christian" Europe and "Christian" Russia for the cooking of the Jews in kettles.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
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#10
Akhi Paul,

Prophet Jonah the Hebrew prophet preached repentance to the people of Nineveh didn't he? Isn't Nineveh the capital city of the Assyrians? What was the language understood by the people of Nineveh? Prophet Jonah seems had no problem in switching from Hebrew to the language of the Ninevites.

The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here. (Matthew 12:41)

Ninevites repented at the preaching of Jonah. Jesus is greater than Jonah. Don't you think that the people of Nineveh would repent when the Apostles & the early disciples brought the Gospel to them?
One of the first owners of the facsimile of <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0802837867/ref=nosim/ultimyourulti-20"><b>Codex Leningrad</b></a>
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#11
Shlama Akhay Paul & Dan,

God has been bringing the Assyrian peoples and their language to the attention of the West via Mel Gibson and the toppling of the Taliban and Saddam Hussein. I was greatly encouraged with the response of Assyrians and Muslims in Iraq turning to the churches there for prayer , encouragement and the gospel message recently.

The West has been sinfully ignorant and negligent of Eastern Christendom and its peoples for two millennia;
may God forgive us and restore us to understanding, love and unity with each other , East and West , and thus with Himself , for what we have done to one of these His brethren, we have done it unto Him.

The devil is very angry, "for he knows his time is short" (See Rev. 12:12). See how many nations have reacted to U.S. victory in Iraq over Saddam and over Bin Ladin in Afghanistan.

We in the West who have liberty must use that liberty to aid and support our brothers in bondage "as being bound with them" , for "if one member of the body suffers, the whole body suffers with it". The body of Christ is East and West, North and South. There are no boundaries, except to the very narrow minds of some.

We are living in great times, and we are playing a part for good. May we always take the Lord's side and see His hand at work in our time, unlike the Pharisees of the first century
who did not understand their times ,and that The Lord God had become flesh and stood before them !

What a fearful prospect it is to call oneself His friend while being truly His enemy at heart who would murder Him with mockery , pride and hate, condemning Him as a heretic and deceiver.

I praise Him for His mercy and longsuffering toward us. I thank Him for not requiting evil with evil , but overcoming evil with good.

I look for His glory to increase in the world as Satan goes down into the abyss kicking and screaming, bound hand and foot.

Amen & Amen,


Dave Bauscher
Get my NT translations, books & articles at :
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#12
Hehehe, wow can you feel that!

Does truth hurt? I guess it does. The principle of it is there, and it is not mine but God's.

Dan, do you think that I have never went through tribulation and trials? That I am devoid of dealing directly with satan and his personnel and beating them back?

Your not even aware of it and I don't have the time to list all of everything that happened in Hawaii and California here for you. I'll tell you this, I lived where the next man who had 27 people using voodoo and praying for his death would have died. I only lived because God showed me how to deal with it and helped me get through it. There would be no way I would have been here without Him. I am quite happy that He is able to utilize me in prayer that way.

If what I say makes you jealous on here, good, maybe you will desire something more from God than you have at the moment.

It is not always me that speaks here. The Spirit filled life is an amazing thing. To have The Holy Spirit speak on your behalf at times is truly an amazing thing! The revelation knowledge, the quickness in mind and thought is beyond everything that I had prior to knowing Jesus in my heart. I'm just glad that I asked.

If you believe that everything I say is always me, then you are not aware of the gifts of The Spirit and how those are manifested. The very fact that you and I and others are having stife here at this moment is a testament to the conviction ability that The Holy Spirit has. Look at Paul, he is badmouthing one of God's servants and The Spirit again and is setting himself up for even more tribulation.

No Dan I'm not an authority. I speak what is given to me to speak. If that truth hurts at times, then so be it.

Are those people you mentioned living under the grace of God? Obviously not. Am I wrong in what I said in relation to God's principles? Obviously not.

Do I hate those people? No. Do I believe that Paul's assyrian empire is going to be anything more than what it is now? No, it died out for a reason. Whatever reason that was, God allowed it. I can speculate that they did something really wrong.

God's principle is there and proven time and time again. Unless one of God's people is there in a particular area to petition and pray for God to move His hand in situations, then satan will rule that area. As God's children, we are to have dominion in the areas that we live in. If it is not happening, then someone is not praying correctly or there is no one there to pray, no matter what they may call themselves.
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#13
In the Tanakh Assyria is described as God's "rod of iron" with which to punish His sinning Israelites. Seems an honour to me <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> Assyria is also prophesied to play a major role in the building of the world. We most definitely have not seen the last of the Assyrians or their language.
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#14
Dave Wrote:Do I hate those people? No. Do I believe that Paul's assyrian empire is going to be anything more than what it is now? No, it died out for a reason. Whatever reason that was, God allowed it. I can speculate that they did something really wrong.

There is a serious flaw in your argument above. Jesus was crucified and died on the cross for a reason. Whatever reason that was, God allowed it. Jesus Christ must have done something really wrong, eh? <!-- sHuh --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/huh.gif" alt="Huh" title="Huh" /><!-- sHuh -->

Dave Wrote:God's principle is there and proven time and time again. Unless one of God's people is there in a particular area to petition and pray for God to move His hand in situations, then satan will rule that area. As God's children, we are to have dominion in the areas that we live in. If it is not happening, then someone is not praying correctly or there is no one there to pray, no matter what they may call themselves.

The Apostles and the early disciples lived in the area dominated by the Romans and the Persians. I guess the Apostles did not pray correctly, huh? I guess there were no one there to pray, no matter what they may call themselves, eh? <!-- sHuh --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/huh.gif" alt="Huh" title="Huh" /><!-- sHuh -->



Dave,

Once again, you failed to see the reality don't you? Let me rephrase it one more time...

You think that God is with you only but not with others. You think that you are the only one who knows the truth here. Others don't.

Your participation in this forum is clearly not to seek the truth with humility or speak the truth with humility but to prove to yourself that you are more right than others in order to build up your own ego.

Why must you be contentious all the time? Why whenever someone is trying to share something in this forum, you are always trying to be contentious and argue instead of trying to understand what others wanted to share?

Lack of humility makes you think that you are always right that you refuse to learn from others or receive correction from others. All you ever wanted is to prove others are wrong and you are right. Self love makes you think so highly of yourself that you regard others are not Christians or lesser Christian than you. You think that others are jealous of you.

You come here to argue because you like to argue. You are not interested in getting answers. All you wanted is finding someone to argue. You are mistaken if you think that you could hurt others with your 'truth.' If that is what you are thinking then you are nothing but a contentious sadistic person.

Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ (Ephesians 4:15)

Apostle Paul commanded us to speak the truth in love. Without humility, even the best arguments will ring hollow. Your aim in speaking the truth should be to set people free, not to defend yourself or acquit yourself of all error.

Someone who is contentious is someone who is exhibiting an often perverse and wearisome tendency to quarrels and disputes. He/She derives his/her gratification from inflicting abuse on others.

If that is all you ever wanted here in this forum then I think we should no longer entertain you and should deprive you of what you are craving for so that you could overcome your addiction.


Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. (Ephesians 4:29 - 32)
One of the first owners of the facsimile of <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0802837867/ref=nosim/ultimyourulti-20"><b>Codex Leningrad</b></a>
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#15
What's a matter Dan, are you taking everything I say as personal here? The only way that would be happening is if your being convicted by The Holy Spirit.

God's people have always been bold, not this timid humility that you want me and others to live under. Look at Stephen in Acts. Now was he this weak timid person? Afraid not.

Shoot, people stoned him because he was verbally attacking them. The Holy Spirit was speaking boldly through him.

I don't know where you think that all Christians must be this timid quiet in-speach type person such as yourself, it can't be, God does important things through different people in different ways. I could never be like you and you could never be like me.

Jesus was the most outspoken person who lived on the planet. Was He always this kind gentle person that exibited this sort of meakness 100% of the time? No. He was the Aleph, a silent voice, one that went to death without protest but had a voice other times.

Dan, my observations are my observations. I could be wrong, I have never said that I am perfect. The prophetic voice is something I don't know how to allow to speak at times, it does not seem to be harnessed, The Spirit speaks whenever.

Why don't you just ignore me Dan? I don't think your able to because my way of handling things is much rougher than you are accustomed to.

God will do what He wants. If He wants to bring back Paul's empire well He will. If He wants to continue to allow it to be a historical fact, well He will do that to. It doesn't matter to me buddy.

I've been a Christian for 13 years and I'm no teenager in spirit. I am growing freakin fast. A lot of folks never realize their santification progress and just how babyfied they are in their growth. I think that the mature in spirit do have an affect upon others who are still weening on milk, I don't know. I better hadn't get too far into that or you will take that personal too.

Anyways, I'm not sure why you would expect everyone to just be so happy, happy, joy, joy about a syriac version. It's not an original aramaic version, it's a dialect.

Not everyone would be so eager to accept something new so quick, not if they were the least bit smart in their approach. It's too easy to be fooled by mankind and satan all the time, everything must be tested until one gets the complete witness inside that it is completely correct. Would I be so foolish to just accept what you say as the truth all the time? I would be a fool if I did.

Things must be investigated and proved.
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