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A gift
#1
Shlama,

During my searches for the key to make Akhi Paul tap out, I found a very interesting site.

Enjoy!

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://starling.rinet.ru/Intrab.htm#bases">http://starling.rinet.ru/Intrab.htm#bases</a><!-- m -->
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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#2
bar_khela Wrote:Shlama,

During my searches for the key to make Akhi Paul tap out, I found a very interesting site.

Enjoy!

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://starling.rinet.ru/Intrab.htm#bases">http://starling.rinet.ru/Intrab.htm#bases</a><!-- m -->

Are you still looking for a site that will glorify those lizard-chasing illiterates? Arabic is a late comer my dear friend. The reason it evolved so many ways to say "Hey, you naughty lizard! I command you to stay still!" is uninteresting.....REALLY.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
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#3
Paul Younan Wrote:
bar_khela Wrote:Shlama,

During my searches for the key to make Akhi Paul tap out, I found a very interesting site.

Enjoy!

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://starling.rinet.ru/Intrab.htm#bases">http://starling.rinet.ru/Intrab.htm#bases</a><!-- m -->

Are you still looking for a site that will glorify those lizard-chasing illiterates? Arabic is a late comer my dear friend. The reason it evolved so many ways to say "Hey, you naughty lizard! I command you to stay still!" is uninteresting.....REALLY.

<!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

The Persians were the first to call them "lizard-eaters" after the series of Islamic conquests. I see Assyrians have the same view

I'm not defending the Arabs. I'm defending Arabic as it is the language of the Qu'ran.

Finally, you're very humorous.
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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#4
Akhi,

People who weren't burdened with reading novels, solving advanced mathematical algorithms and creating a more sanirary environment (yes, Mesopotamians had toilets)....had to pass time somehow.

Why not chase lizards? The Arabs looked out in all directions of the desert and saw lizards more advanced than themselves..lizards could at least scurry away from their turds..but not the Arabs...and you want to talk to me about how superior their language is?

Any semblance of civilization they were able to obtain came as a direct result of leaving the desert and joining their Semitic brethren whom they conquered. They learned how to bathe themselves, read, write, do math on something other than their 12 fingers, and how to flush a toilet.

Yes, they've come a long way. By the time the Islamic empire was centered in Baghdad (in Mesopotamia), the most advanced city of its time, they had (no thanks to themselves) built a magnificent civilization....on the backs of those whom they conquered who, in return for their necks, taught them everything they needed to know. Notice: the center of that magnificent civilization was in Mesopotamia, not the deserts of Arabia. They were Mesopotamians who had been forced into Islam by the conquerers.

And what was Muhammad's biggest contribution to mankind? That he came out of his tent one day and yelled "There is no God but God?"

Woo-hoo! Thanks for filling us in, nobody (especially not the Jews and Christians surrounding him in all directions) had figured that out before!

And you call him a "prophet?" The meaning of the word is one who prophesies. Did he prophesy anything that we know came to pass?

Sorry Akhi, I'm not impressed.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
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#5
Shlama Beloved,

Quote:And you call him a "prophet?" The meaning of the word is one who prophesies. Did he prophesy anything that we know came to pass?

It's more like "One who receives divine revelation"

Quote:Sorry Akhi, I'm not impressed.

You're missin' out.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_01.php">http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_01.php</a><!-- m -->
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
Reply
#6
bar_khela Wrote:
Quote:And you call him a "prophet?" The meaning of the word is one who prophesies. Did he prophesy anything that we know came to pass?

It's more like "One who receives divine revelation"

No, Akhi. Prophets prophesy. Mohammad didn't prophesy. He killed people. Jesus never killed anyone. Mohammad was mean.

bar_khela Wrote:
Quote:Sorry Akhi, I'm not impressed.

You're missin' out.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_01.php">http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_01.php</a><!-- m -->

Here's part of what I'm missing out on, according to the website you gave me containing the "miracles" of the Quran:

Quote:??? We send down from heaven pure water so that by it We can bring a dead land to life and give drink to many of the animals and people We created. (Qur'an, 25:48-49)

Now, I must say, that was BRILLIANT! What a miracle that the Arabs figured out what all other nations had known for thousands of years before.....that rain actually falls down from heaven, one.....and that it brings dead land to life, two.......and as if that weren't enough to backhand us into submission......that it gives drink to many of the animals and people that God (WE) created.......three.

Wow. Amazing. Maybe to them, who never saw any rain in the desert it was. Not to us who saw it plenty of times....we had already figured out that rain makes plants grow, and it gives lizards water to drink.

Not impressed.

I want a prophecy from your "Prophet"....otherwise, stop calling him a "prophet".....prophets prophecy. Mohammed never uttered a prediction, let alone a prophecy.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
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#7
Shlama Akhi Bar Khela--

Speaking from a biblical perspective, the broadest definition of a "prophet" is one who speaks for YHWH. However, Akhi Paul is correct in the sense that a prophet is VALIDATED by signs and wonders and fulfillment of the vision in history. Otherwise, he is a false prophet. Furthermore, even if the prophet can work wonders, he can still be false if his doctrine is wrong (Deuteronomy 13). Obviously I don't think Y'shua (Jesus) was a false prophet!

But as for Mohammed, he seems to shy away from direct, on point prophecy that we can quantify. He also shies away from miracles, at least in the sense that Jews and Christians have come to expect them. By contrast, both Moses and Y'shua were BRIMMING with miracles when it came time for them to speak their "prophecy", or what you Bar Khela call "receiving divine revelation". The whole "if the mountain won't come to Mohammed" line may be apocryphal (I believe it is) but that does not mean it is not a fair assessment of what the historical Mohammed did, or more importantly, what he did NOT do. From Jewish and Christian views though (and others feel free to correct me if I don't speak well for you) there was really nothing new in what Mohammed said, which was, among other things:

1) Only one God
2) Pray a lot.
3) Give alms.
4) Rest on Friday night.
5) Don't eat pork.

Can you see why, particularly my ancestors, would basically go "been there, done that, doing it now"???? We've been doing this for thousands of years, and they figure this out about the year 610??? But for Christians (and for myself as a Nazarene) denying the resurrection of Y'shua (as Mohammed does) is not a small point. In fact, without it, as the apostle Paul says, our preaching is worthless! So maybe there's an issue there too.

In the end, the similarities, the differences and the lack of attestation I describe very ably sum up why Mohammed's message did not take root with "people of the book". And all this is without even getting into the violence issue either.

So, perhaps you can think of Mohammed as someone special Akhi Bar Khela, but if he was (or is), I don't see that fitting into the biblical definition. It's consistency can only come from it's own frame of reference and not what came before, in my opinion. Perhaps then the only term that I know of that could apply is the very general "ahmed" (advocate), but you know I don't see him that way.

Akhi Bar Khela, it surely may be looked at as progress that Arabs went from worshipping 3 goddesses to embracing one God, just as it is for Hellenistic Christians who 2000 years ago stopped worshipping Zeus, Diana, etc. However, where is the validation of the message?

And by bilbical definiton, Mohammed does nto sem to fit into being a "seer" either, because those visions are also validated, like with Ezekiel.

Hope this helps!
Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
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#8
Shlama Akhay Paul and Andrew,

We will resume this on Monday.

Be warned.
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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#9
bar_khela Wrote:Shlama Akhay Paul and Andrew,

We will resume this on Monday.

Be warned.

Love you man.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
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#10
Shlama Akhi Andrew,

1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;

2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

4. And there is none like unto Him.

Surah 112

Agree or Disagree?
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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#11
Shlama Beloved,

"My first goal was to read the Qur'an and to make a sentence by sentence analysis of it... my approach was to pay special attention to the description of numerous natural phenomena given in the Qur'an; the highly accurate nature of certain details referring to them in the Book, which was only apparent in the original, struck me by the fact that they were in keeping with present-day ideas although a man living at the time of Mohammed couldn't have suspected this at all...what initially strikes the reader confronted for the first time with a text of this kind is the sheer abundance of subjects discussed... whereas monumental errors are to be found in the Bible I could not find a single error in the Qur'an. I had to stop and ask myself: if a man was the author of the Qur'an how could he have written facts in the seventh century A.D. that today are shown to be in keeping with modern scientific knowledge?... What human explanation can there be to this observation? In my opinion there is no explanation; there is no special reason why an inhabitant of the Arabian Peninsula should have had scientific knowledge on certain subjects that was ten centuries ahead... It is an established fact that at the time of the Qur'anic Revelation, i.e. within a period of roughly twenty three years straddling Hegira (622 A.D.), scientific knowledge had not progressed for centuries and the period of activity in Islamic civilization, with its accompanying scientific upsurge, came after the close of the Qur'anic revelation." Dr Maurice Bucaille "The Bible, the Qur'an and Science"

Let me give you an example of what this French physician is talking about

"The heaven, we have built it with power. Verily we are expanding it. (Sura 51, verse 47)"

"The expansion of the universe is the most imposing discovery of modern science today. It is a firmly established concept and the only debate centres around the way this is taking place. It was first suggested by the general theory of relativity and is backed up by physics in the examination of the galactic spectrum; the regular movement towards the red section of their spectrum may be explained by the distancing of one galaxy from another. Thus the size of the Universe is probably constantly increasing and this increase will become bigger the further away the galaxies are from us. The speeds at which these celestial bodies are moving may, in the course of this perpetual expansion, go from fractions of the speed of light to speeds faster than this.Dr Maurice Bucaille "The Bible, the Qur'an and Science"

Interesting, huh?

Here's another:

"It is cited in the Koran, the holy book of the Muslims, that human beings are produced from a mixture of secretions from the male and the female. Several references are made to the creation of a human being from a sperm drop and it is also suggested that the resulting organism settles in the woman like a seed, six days after its beginning. (The human blastocyst begins to implant about six days after fertilization.) The Koran, (and prophet saying), also states that the sperm drop develops 'into a clot of congealed blood' (an implanted blastocyst or a spontaneously aborted conceptus would resemble a blood clot.) Reference is also made to the leech-like appearance of the embryo...The Developing Human by Dr. Keith L. Moore, published by W.B. Saunders, 1982.

12. Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay);

13. Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed;

14. Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create! (Sura 23:12-14).

These are minute examples.

Now what?
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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#12
Shlama Son of Thunder,

Quote:Speaking from a biblical perspective, the broadest definition of a "prophet" is one who speaks for YHWH. However, Akhi Paul is correct in the sense that a prophet is VALIDATED by signs and wonders and fulfillment of the vision in history. Otherwise, he is a false prophet. Furthermore, even if the prophet can work wonders, he can still be false if his doctrine is wrong (Deuteronomy 13). Obviously I don't think Y'shua (Jesus) was a false prophet!

....the Meccans still demanded of him a miracle, and with remarkable boldness and self confidence Mohammad appealed as a supreme confirmation of his mission to the Koran itself. Like all Arabs they were the connoisseurs of language and rhetoric. Well, then if the Koran were his own composition other men could rival it. Let them produce ten verses like it. If they could not (and it is obvious that they could not), then let them accept the Koran as an outstanding evident miracle.H A R Gibb, Islam - A Historical Survey, 1980, Oxford University Press, p. 28.

The Quran is one of the world's classics which cannot be translated without grave loss. It has a rhythm of peculiar beauty and a cadence that charms the ear. Many Christian Arabs speak of its style with warm admiration, and most Arabists acknowledge its excellence. When it is read aloud or recited it has an almost hypnotic effect that makes the listener indifferent to its sometimes strange syntax and its sometimes, to us, repellent content. It is this quality it possesses of silencing criticism by the sweet music of its language that has given birth to the dogma of its inimitability; indeed it may be affirmed that within the literature of the Arabs, wide and fecund as it is both in poetry and in elevated prose, there is nothing to compare with it.Alfred Guillaume, Islam, 1990 (Reprinted), Penguin Books, pp. 73-74.

"A'isha Abd al-Rahman studies inductively other aspects of Qur'??nic usage and offers fresh ideas and new interpretation, uncovering certain consistencies never observed before, such as those regarding the use of passive voice in the Qur'??nic scenes of the day of resurrection, which in her view, emphasize the passivity of the universe and the spontaneity of all creation in obeying the overwhelming events of the day. These and other observations of hers transcend traditional Arabic syntax and rhetoric as she attempts to capture the reality that lies behind Quranic expression. Her conclusion is that the Qur'??n, being neither prose nor verse, is a literary genre of its own that is of the highest eloquence and of matchless stylistic perfection" Andrew Rippin (Ed.), Approaches of The History of Interpretation of The Qur'??n, 1988, Clarendon Press, Oxford, p. 154.

Quote:But as for Mohammed, he seems to shy away from direct, on point prophecy that we can quantify. He also shies away from miracles, at least in the sense that Jews and Christians have come to expect them. By contrast, both Moses and Y'shua were BRIMMING with miracles when it came time for them to speak their "prophecy", or what you Bar Khela call "receiving divine revelation". The whole "if the mountain won't come to Mohammed" line may be apocryphal (I believe it is) but that does not mean it is not a fair assessment of what the historical Mohammed did, or more importantly, what he did NOT do. From Jewish and Christian views though (and others feel free to correct me if I don't speak well for you) there was really nothing new in what Mohammed said, which was, among other things:

1) Only one God
2) Pray a lot.
3) Give alms.
4) Rest on Friday night.
5) Don't eat pork.

37. This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah. on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds.

38. Or do they say, "He forged it"? say: "Bring then a Sura like unto it, and call (to your aid) anyone you can besides Allah, if it be ye speak the truth!" (Sura 10:37-38)


Quote:[In fact, without it, as the apostle Paul says, our preaching is worthless! So maybe there's an issue there too.

There lies the problem.

88. They say: "((Allah)) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"
89. Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
90. At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
91. That they should invoke a son for ((Allah)) Most Gracious.
92. For it is not consonant with the majesty of ((Allah)) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
93. Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to ((Allah)) Most Gracious as a servant.
94. He does take an account of them (all), and hath numbered them (all) exactly. (Sura 19)


Ali bin Rabb??n at-Tabari said:

"When I was a Christian I used to say, as did an uncle of mine who was one of the learned and eloquent men, that eloquence is not one of the signs of prophethood because it is common to all the peoples; but when I discarded (blind) imitation and (old) customs and gave up adhering to (mere) habit and training and reflected upon the meanings of the Qur'??n I came to know that what the followers of the Qur'??n claimed for it was true. The fact is that I have not found any book, be it by an Arab or a Persian, an Indian or a Greek, right from the beginning of the world up to now, which contains at the same time praises of God, belief in the prophets and apostles, exhortations to good, everlasting deeds, command to do good and prohibition against doing evil, inspiration to the desire of paradise and to avoidance of hell-fire as this Qur'??n does. So when a person brings to us a book of such qualities, which inspires such reverence and sweetness in the hearts and which has achieved such an overlasting success and he is (at the same time) an illiterate person who did never learnt the art of writing or rhetoric, that book is without any doubt one of the signs of his Prophethood.Abdul Aleem, I'jaz ul Qur'??n, Islamic Culture, Op. Cit., pp. 222-223.

He was an Assyrian Christian who converted at seventy, I may add.
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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#13
Shlama Bar Khela,

You wrote :
Quote:Several references are made to the creation of a human being from a sperm drop and it is also suggested that the resulting organism settles in the woman like a seed, six days after its beginning. (The human blastocyst begins to implant about six days after fertilization.) The Koran, (and prophet saying), also states that the sperm drop develops 'into a clot of congealed blood' (an implanted blastocyst or a spontaneously aborted conceptus would resemble a blood clot.)

This is gross error in the Koran. A human being is not created from a sperm drop; no organism results from a sperm drop and settles in the woman like a seed. If you had studied Biology and Genetics, you would know this.

One sperm cell must penetrate one female egg cell and fertilize it. There can be no organism developing from a sperm drop. There must be the union of a sperm cell with an egg first.
You have proven that Mohammed wrote errors in the name of Allah.

Shlama ,

Dave B
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#14
Shlama Bar Khela,

And a sperm drop never becomes a "clot of congealed blood". This is primitive Biology and cannot be the word of God.
There are no errors in the science of the Bible; neither errors of History or Theology. Many have claimed so, but no one can demonstrate a single specific error.

Burktha,

Dave B
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#15
Shlama Dave,

Quote:This is gross error in the Koran. A human being is not created from a sperm drop; no organism results from a sperm drop and settles in the woman like a seed. If you had studied Biology and Genetics, you would know this.

Let's look at this again, Dave.

"It is cited in the Koran, the holy book of the Muslims, that human beings are produced from a mixture of secretions from the male and the female.
-------
???Verily We created man of a fluid-drop (nutfa), mingling (amshaj) , in order to try him: so We gave him (the gifts of) hearing and sight.??? (76:2).

Nutfa, in Arabic, is a single small drop of water, but it was described here as (amshaj) , which means its structure consists of combined mixtures. This fits with the scientific finding, as the zygote is shaped as a spherical drop, and is simultaneously a mixture of male fluid chromosomes and female ovum chromosomes.
-------
Several references are made to the creation of a human being from a sperm drop and it is also suggested that the resulting organism settles in the woman like a seed, six days after its beginning.

13. Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed;

(The human blastocyst begins to implant about six days after fertilization.) The Koran, (and prophet saying), also states that the sperm drop develops 'into a clot of congealed blood'

14. Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create! (Sura 23:12-14).


Let's examine this sequence:

The word "clot in Arabic is "Alaq" which means "something that clings or a leech-like substance.

"When the sperm of the male unites with the ovum of the female, the essence of the baby to be born is formed. This single cell, known as a "zygote" in biology, will instantly start to reproduce by dividing, and eventually become a "piece of flesh" called an embryo. This of course can only be seen by human beings with the aid of a microscope.

The embryo, however, does not spend its developmental period in a void. It clings to the uterus just like roots that are firmly fixed to the earth by their tendrils. Through this bond, the embryo can obtain the substances essential to its development from the mother's body"Keith L. Moore, E. Marshall Johnson, T. V. N. Persaud, Gerald C. Goeringer, Abdul-Majeed A. Zindani, Mustafa A. Ahmed, Human Development as Described in the Qur'an and Sunnah, Commission on Scientific Signs of the Qur'an and Sunnah, Makkah, 1992, p. 36

In a word, this is called implantation in Biology.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/3week.html">http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/3week.html</a><!-- m -->

Look at it clinging to the uterus for its nutrition. Pretty, huh?

A little bit more info: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.vetscite.org/publish/items/001022/">http://www.vetscite.org/publish/items/001022/</a><!-- m -->

Lump

The word for lump in Arabic is Mudgha, which means "that which is chewed"

This stage of the human embryo takes place around the 24th to 26th day of implantation after the blastocyst stage

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://bio.winona.msus.edu/berg/ILLUST/embryo1.gif">http://bio.winona.msus.edu/berg/ILLUST/embryo1.gif</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://nobelprize.org/medicine/laureates/1995/illpres/c-embryo.gif">http://nobelprize.org/medicine/laureate ... embryo.gif</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/4week.html">http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/4week.html</a><!-- m -->

What do you notice about the lining of the tail?

Bones and Muscles

First the bones form as cartilage models and then the muscles (flesh) develop around them from the somatic mesoderm.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/6week.html">http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/6week.html</a><!-- m -->

No muscles yet. Still developing spine.

.... then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create! (Sura 23:12-14).

it is no longer an embryo. It's a fetus.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/16week.html">http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/16week.html</a><!-- m -->

Ah, muscles! He so big and stroong!

Quote:One sperm cell must penetrate one female egg cell and fertilize it. There can be no organism developing from a sperm drop. There must be the union of a sperm cell with an egg first.
You have proven that Mohammed wrote errors in the name of Allah.

What happens when a sperm cell reaches "a place of rest, firmly fixed?" Hint: Sperm do not rest until one has penetrated the egg.
----------

While Galen of the 2nd century already discovered that human embryos develop in the uterus, he did not know that its formation takes place in stages

"He makes you in the wombs of your mothers in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness" (39:6)

1) the anterior abdominal wall;
(2) the uterine wall; and
(3) the amnichorionic membrane

The first known illustration of this discovery was in the fifteenth century by Di Vinci.

So who taught Muhammad about "three veils of darkness?"

5. O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that ye may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are called to die, and some are sent back to the feeblest old age, so that they know nothing after having known (much), and (further), thou seest the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down rain on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells, and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs). (Sura 22)

Embryos are composed of both differentiated and undifferentiated tissues. For example, when the cartilage bones are differentiated, the embryonic connective tissue or mesenchyme around them is undifferentiated. It later differentiates into the muscles and ligaments attached to the bones.

Now what, Dave?
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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